MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: xxx_mojo_xxx on November 15, 2009, 11:47:47 pm
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Ok guys... I'm thinking about an intercooler now...
Options that I'm aware of are: S3, Forge, THS, and APR. APR is too expensive, so that leaves the first three.
Which ones do you have fitted/can recommend?
Am I correct in thinking the Forge bolts on to the existing intercooler - I guess that's more weight that I don't really want to be carrying?
Open to opinions/thoughts. Thanks in advance.
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im really interested as well. was going to pick one up, but since its winter and not hot, the cat back is being ordered instead.
I like the design of the twintercooler. it seems to make sense, you read about lag it can produce, but then you read about people with it who dont mention lag, but instead a crisper response??
The S3 IC does the job fine over here, but the guys in america with the S3 IC suffer heat soak still when it is redhot. Now i know america is very hot. I spend alot of time in germany where it can be over 35+ degrees for a couple weeks at a time. I think the S3 cooler could be at its limit there.
I like the idea of the S3 IC and twintercooler together. would appreciate top CAT to comment on it as i believe he has it.
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After some research and user reviews I'm going for the APR.
A few reasons -
1) I live in Australia (South West) where for 6 months of the year the temperature is around or above 30 degrees.
... for another 3 months of the year above 35 degrees (or so it bloody feels!)
The rest is mid to low 20s, so i'll benefit from it year round.
2) I like the stock looking engine bay and front end, and the APR intercooler is one of those mods (like the S3 cooler) which will just tuck away.
Front mount intercoolers look cool and (logically at the front of the airflow) they should perform really well, but on a limited edition car like the Pirelli, I didn't want to have to cut anything up, so I've opted for a more bolt-on approach.
I know the install is much more involved, but I won't be doing that myself.
3) There's also a bit of a black or white mentality when it comes to tuning in Australia that this forum has (for the most part) managed to keep at an arms length.
It is VERY rare (in fact I can't think of one) to have organisations like JKM, who will happily furnish you with REVO, Bluefin or APR tunes.
My local tuner (5 mins from home) is an APR reseller, so I'm going for APR Intercooler, APR HPFP and their Stage 2+ tune in my Pirelli GTI. I know I'm paying a LOT more than I would be for a Forge or an S3 cooler, but I'll also have the local product support and hands on technical support of my tuner should the sh!t hit the fan.
APR also don't need me to have an intake for stage 2+ (which means i keep a stock looking bay) which cancels out some of the premium you pay.
My downpipe is a ceramic coated 42 Draft, which will be mated to the stock cat-back exhaust, and it will all go in on the same day.
But I wouldn't call any of this a recommendation yet - as the APR gear is still on its way to my tuner.
However I feel like I've made the right choice for my situation - Tuned K04 in a hot environment - but I'm paying a pretty penny for it.
If I was in the UK, I'd be going for the S3 cooler and probably match it up to a Forge twintercooler if I was chasing big power.
Front mounts -
BSH are also making an intercooler now - sits where the forge one does, but makes your stock IC a bolted-in paperweight (bypasses it).
http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/product.php?productid=16998&cat=695&page=1
There's also a kit from VF Engineering which I believe is similar to the Forge setup.
http://www.vf-accessories.com/acc-intercooler_vw.php
I'd like to know more about THS - anyone have links?
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Here's a link to the THS intercooler for you.
It is virtually a carbon copy for the APR cooler.
http://www.thsperformance.co.uk/product/2.0_TFSI_Intercooler_THSINT-TFSI
DomT is running one of these with good results.
I bought one but it now resides on another car!!
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Ths looks nice
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im running the forge twintercooler - got it for a good price c£450 but watch out for cheap chinese copies on ebay..
forge is less work to install but the supplied pipes needed cutting before it fitted on properly (common issue) - believe this may be resolved as they now sell a Gti version and Edition 30 version.
in hindsight i probably would have gone with the vf stage 2 I/C which works exactly the same as the forge but the intercooler core is better quality and it comes with hardpipes rather than the flexible rubber/plastic offerings from forge
THS also looks nice and price is competitive but as discussed will require longer fitting time.
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Does anyone have test results for the S3 intercooler - showing how much it improves things by?
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in hindsight i probably would have gone with the vf stage 2 I/C which works exactly the same as the forge but the intercooler core is better quality and it comes with hardpipes rather than the flexible rubber/plastic offerings from forge
....Any links to more info, please? < Don't worry, Google is my fwend! : -
http://www.vf-accessories.com/acc-intercooler_vw.php [and thanks, Sy - I missed it in Reply #2]
Sounds like a good alternative to the Forge Twintercooler :happy2:
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reply #2
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....
Re S3 vs APR intercooler, apparently the surface area for cooling fins is much greater on the APR core, leading to more efficient heat transfer.
I'll let everyone else decide whether they want to spend the money or not.
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Run the S3 cooler as an upgrade on the original and go twincooler. Despite the surface area of the APR cooler being higher (this is based on the comments above about the fins) the volume of compressed air which is exposed to cooled surfaces before being run to the inlet would appear to be higher thus leading to a better cooling efficiency. Validated results on the S3 cooler alone from a VAG COM test by djhorace would lead me to believe 1/3 to 1/4 increase in cooling. I am happy to stand corrected, as I am quoting this all from memory
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Run the S3 cooler as an upgrade on the original and go twincooler. Despite the surface area of the APR cooler being higher (this is based on the comments above about the fins) the volume of compressed air which is exposed to cooled surfaces before being run to the inlet would appear to be higher thus leading to a better cooling efficiency. Validated results on the S3 cooler alone from a VAG COM test by djhorace would lead me to believe 1/3 to 1/4 increase in cooling. I am happy to stand corrected, as I am quoting this all from memory
nah thats about spot on pum, i was considering the THS, and got the s3 cooler as a stop gap, but seeing as the car is perfectly fine with it i cant see any reason to blow more money in that cooling department when the s3 one is suffice?
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That is all fine and good for the UK climate but for those in hotter climates (like those greek Punto GT's that wanted more than the Saab 900 FMIC's :wink:) the S3 IC still needs something additional out front getting cold air before anything else gets some of the cooling. From that perspective the Twin system would be better. Despite the smaller size, the IC out front gets as cool as it can. Also the additional exposed surface area is what counts when it comes to Intercoolers. I cannot comment on the additional lag as I am not au fait with how much air is consumed at x pressure at x rpm to figure out the additional volume making an impact. At low rpm's it may be possible to introduce lag or pressure drops however I cannot validate that with facts.
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In the way of an update...I'm inclined towards the S3 intercooler - costs considered, etc. I'm not looking to go too crazy with the mods.
This brings me to the next bit...are they a b*tch to fit? What needs to be removed, and what bits do I need apart from the intercooler?
About the turbo lag - is this apparent with the S3 one? Still unclear how an intercooler can impact the turbo from spooling up (ref. turbo lag)?
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In the way of an update...I'm inclined towards the S3 intercooler - costs considered, etc. I'm not looking to go too crazy with the mods.
This brings me to the next bit...are they a b*tch to fit? What needs to be removed, and what bits do I need apart from the intercooler?
About the turbo lag - is this apparent with the S3 one? Still unclear how an intercooler can impact the turbo from spooling up (ref. turbo lag)?
Its not too hard to fit, just need to take the front end off, you just need to be patient and take your time, the fitting is quite logical..
if you have a k03 though...
The OEM Turbo discharge transfer pipe part number 1K0 145 840 Q - does Not work with the Audi S3 Intercooler upgrade as the Intercooler entry side turbo hose has a different orientation of locking keyway.
This 'non working' transfer pipe is 'generally' fitted to (and therfore effects) later cars, typically MY 2006 onwards. However an actual inspection of the pipework type fitted to your car is always recomended as it is not easy to state what models have the 'Transfer Pipe that works' fitted by chassis look up.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FTFSI-images%2FOverviewpage%2FIntecooler%2FOEMpipe-ig.jpg&hash=c06059540d4b5ba7fc79414d4b318774aa4d2512)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FTFSI-images%2FOverviewpage%2FIntecooler%2Fdischarges2.jpg&hash=a70766e78533392540a61cf75cc8e80b2f8beb69)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FTFSI-images%2FOverviewpage%2FIntecooler%2Fdischarges.jpg&hash=aa9295226739abcb4d60f42d3e454ab79a7961a2)
once you know this then you can decide what to do..
also there is no lag atall on mine :S dont think thats an issue
cheers
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and if you don't want to buy the S3 IC hoses then you can use your original hoses by cutting off the couplers at the IC side. You just attach the "bare" hoses to the S3 IC using jubilee clips.
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So, let me get this straight...
I may need a Turbo discharge transfer pipe as the OEM may not fit the S3 inter cooler. My car is MY2008 - so probably will.
I will need a new set of inter cooler pipes...if I didn't want to cut and use the current ones. Would a set of Forge silicone ones do?
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^^^^
Although more expensive, silicone hoses will last longer and be more durable on a tuned car.