MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Track Day Technical => Topic started by: flashp on December 19, 2014, 06:05:58 pm
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I'm looking to replace my S3 front brakes for a specification close to that in the title. I guess the usual suspects are in contention AP, Brembo, Alcon and now even Revo (Alcon) supply a number of kits.
The reason for the upgrade is that on track the brakes struggle to keep up with the car. These will be for function not show.
I'd like to invite any opinions on kits and options and also any tips on where to buy from experienced owners.
Thanks in advance! :happy2:
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Can't fault mine really... Bar the cost :sick:
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@vRSAlex (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1981) @AKS tuning for big brake kits, I love mine and they perform amazingly!
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I saw on awesome gti they now do 2 piece 345mm R32 discs, so:
TTRS/ RS3 calipers
DaveB brackets from AKS for 345/ 340mm discs
2 piece R32 discs
Feroddo/ pagid/ brembo sport pads
Braided hoses
Could probably put that lot together for £1250 odd which is which is how much the 362mm 2 piece disvs cost on their own
I have this setup but with drilled and grooved TTS 340mm discs and theyre fantastic. Will probably get myself some 2 piece discs when my need replacing.
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Can't fault mine really... Bar the cost :sick:
Rich, what do you have fitted currently?
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I believe he has the TTRS/ DB9 calioers and 362mm AP 2 piece discs
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Can't fault mine really... Bar the cost :sick:
Rich, what do you have fitted currently?
What dan said... and RS4-2 pads. Total overkill but i know 100% they wont let me down.
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Over specifying isn't a waste of money, a waste of money and time would be to realise you've not got it right and needing to repeat the exercise. I also need to ensure, like you, that either the car or myself don't outgrow the brakes with any trackdays etc. I've already lost two sessions at Goodwood due to heavy pad pickup and massive vibrations coming through the entire car. Can't be helped, but as an example, there's waste of money :signLOL:
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Well with the TTRS calipers, some 2 piece discs and decent pads you won't suffer that again. I love my brakes, the R32 setup I had before was good enough but with these I just feel much more confident driving the car properly and they're a big weight saving as well.
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Well, I have to say I think there are too many choices for this! :rolleye:
Spoke to AKS today, had a good chat and talked about some good solutions. Particulalrly new Brembo (DB9) calipers and AP full floating discs.
My next car (in some time) is likely to be a Mk7 R. So I'd like to be able to take at least all the expensive stuff from the Mk5 brake kit to that. If that looks like it's not possible or there's still significant expense in getting those parts on then it may be more prudent to spend more modestly now whilst getting the job done and my current problems solved. When it's time to sell the car I could have it taken off so the S3 parts can go back on and then sell the BBK on it's own for an equally modest loss.
As I said, there's so many hardware options it's a bit bewildering!
TTRS calipers were also talked about, some secondhand ones maybe? Wary of Ebay for stuff like this. On the subject of these, I'm sure I heard that Audi had issued a recall on these brakes??
Have I really got to spend £2,000????
Any further suggestions very welcome! :drinking:
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The recall was for rattling and squeaking pads, also the discs are a bit pants because they're not sided so they don't cool very well. Mine have been fine with the aftermarket pads, quite a few people run them and I haven't heard of any issues.
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Are you sure you need the 2 piece discs?
My aks ttrs/db9 set up with EBC USR discs and rs4-2s hasn't faded on me yet even with multiple successsive 100mph+ to 20 stops... OEM (new) fluid too so in theory could further expand with performance fluid if you believe in that junk.
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Are you sure you need the 2 piece discs?
My aks ttrs/db9 set up with EBC USR discs and rs4-2s hasn't faded on me yet even with multiple successsive 100mph+ to 20 stops... OEM (new) fluid too so in theory could further expand with performance fluid if you believe in that junk.
That's a fair question, I'll give you some background...
I had a trackday at Goodwood and the car developed quite a vigorous shake when braking from almost any speed over 80mph. On my day I was breaking for Woodcote from 140mph and the right before St Marys from 125mph, so two heavy slow downs and a few other minor speed adjustments. Clip is here, note that when this started to happen I had no choice but to moderate speed a little before stopping for the day. From 14 to 18 seconds is the best illustration, and ALL of that movement is the vibration I'm describing. Camera mount is solid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t6eIEHETTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t6eIEHETTA)
When I got in to paddock I checked wheel bolt torque just in case and I found a hub thread stripped, see this thread: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,92081.msg925968.html#msg925968 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,92081.msg925968.html#msg925968)
Anyhow, turns out the brakes have also got too hot (no fade) and the pads have deposited on to the disc which caused all the vibration and some very minor warping is also present. I consider myself lucky as it's entirely possible for the wheel bolts to loosen with the severity of the vibration.
So, I want a system that I can rely on to deal with some hard use without the risk of these issues. At present what that setup will comprise of I don't know.
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May as well just save and go for 2 piece... knowing that you can stamp on the brakes as many times as you want and they wont go tits up.
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May as well just save and go for 2 piece... knowing that you can stamp on the brakes as many times as you want and they wont go tits up.
Fully floating or bolted do you think?
Pad choice(s) will be my next dilemma!
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Well... similar to the ones ive got which are semi floating I think, in that they can expand but have no lateral movement ( i think)
Ive got Rs42 pads... if i were tracking it all the time i would probably get some project mu pads or similar.
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Well... similar to the ones ive got which are semi floating I think, in that they can expand but have no lateral movement ( i think)
Ive got Rs42 pads... if i were tracking it all the time i would probably get some project mu pads or similar.
Project mu...not heard of those, where did you get yours from?
There's so much to consider here, probably the only modification I will have done with as many variables :rolleye:
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I got my setup from alex.
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Ask Alex about the new 343mm kit, fitted to a couple of dedicated track cars in Germany and Australia and doing very well. It's also available as a bolted kit.
At 13.5" it's on the recommended cusp of needing to be floating so it can be reasonably affordable
Uses a brembo Caliper with 36/40mm Pistons and the same pad shape as a a F430 so plenty of choice, it's going on a Pirelli Monday at AKS so we'll know soon enough.
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Ask Alex about the new 343mm kit, fitted to a couple of dedicated track cars in Germany and Australia and doing very well. It's also available as a bolted kit.
At 13.5" it's on the recommended cusp of needing to be floating so it can be reasonably affordable
Uses a brembo Caliper with 36/40mm Pistons and the same pad shape as a a F430 so plenty of choice, it's going on a Pirelli Monday at AKS so we'll know soon enough.
I actually tried to contact you about this a while back without any luck. PM and email.
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I'm out of the country more than ever now. Hence why Alex has pretty much become the focal point of sales on the forums nowadays.
Any time I get is R&D and shipping to Alex in the main
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The Pirelli that was mentioned is mine it's with Alex this week having everything fitted so we should know very soon how good it is.
By the sound of things from what Dave has told me it is going to be very good, powerful, lightweight, great feel, slim fit to go behind most wheels with minimal spacing loads of pad choice floating or bolted everything you want in a set of brakes and of course Dave has put it together and I don't think there is anybody in the country I would trust more with brakes!
As it happens I am doing a track day next Saturday at Goodwood as well for the Saywell charity day so I will be able to put them to the test properly and see how they hold up! Fingers crossed all is good! :driver:
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What calipers burbs?
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The Brembo 4 pots Dave mentioned.
I will be picking the car up Saturday and Alex has taken a few photos for me etc then once I've done the track day etc I will to do a review.
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The Brembo 4 pots Dave mentioned.
I will be picking the car up Saturday and Alex has taken a few photos for me etc then once I've done the track day etc I will to do a review.
What are they off? DB9? porsche boxster? Turbo?
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Sorry I'm not really sure I think Dave will be best to answer but similar to various different models mk1 lcr f430 possibly jags and astons too. I wish I could be more help but I am not 100% sure.
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What you need are the 362mm 2 piece AP discs with the 4 pots, HEL braided lines, VBT a caliper carriers and associated fitting kit. Project Mu pads if you are doing a lot of track days.
The discs and pads will go all day and night without issue.
Buy once and buy quality at the right spec for what you need. :happy2:
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Sorry I'm not really sure I think Dave will be best to answer but similar to various different models mk1 lcr f430 possibly jags and astons too. I wish I could be more help but I am not 100% sure.
They are taken straight from a Seat Leon Cupra R MK1. Great little caliper that's used by most of the Super cars. Massive pad choice.
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What you need are the 362mm 2 piece AP discs with the 4 pots, HEL braided lines, VBT a caliper carriers and associated fitting kit. Project Mu pads if you are doing a lot of track days.
The discs and pads will go all day and night without issue.
Buy once and buy quality at the right spec for what you need. :happy2:
I supply and fit this kit more to than any other. Even run them on my van with the Pagid RS4-2 pads. The vRS uses the 362mm discs with some 8 pots and the PMU pads.
So popular I always keep the kits and various pad options on the shelf.
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Well, they're on and I'm very pleased with them.
JKM reported that they were an excellent fit and a very comprehensive kit. Everything needed was included, right down to the smallest component.
Only covered a few miles since completing Pagids bedding in instructions for RST3 pads, but so far very impressed.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi326.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fk438%2Fflashp%2F_DSC0097_zpsefvtbowm.jpg&hash=33c586b71c28b50bde3deada6a57ee9067746905)
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Ooosh!!! 362mm?
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355mm :ashamed:
:grin: :grin: :grin:
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Cool.. they do look bloody good mate. :love: I bet they stop like a barstewards?
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They're impressive sure enough. During the bedding in procedure one of the steps to do is 5 stops or so from 110mph to 50 without locking, light breaking and 500m of cooling in between. They actually feel like you could crush the suspension at the front, if that were possible, but you get the idea.
Amazingly when I got to pull over after completing this the disc was still very hot but the bells were stone cold. I've not had 2 piece discs before but I knew that managing heat was one of the advantages but I didn't expect it to be as profound.
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I've just ordered this BBK: CP5575M1011R2.CG12
I think it is the same kit as the one you've just installed.
I really hope it is good. I have 8 weeks to wait for it.
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I've just ordered this BBK: CP5575M1011R2.CG12
I think it is the same kit as the one you've just installed.
I really hope it is good. I have 8 weeks to wait for it.
Having had this on for few days or so now I would say that unless you do track days these are over the top for the road only, well they are with Pagid RST3 pads. They are monumentally powerful and will be brilliant on track but if I didn't track mine I believe I may prefer a 4 piston kit. I'm not sure how much my pad choice is affecting this tbh. I have Michelin PSS tyres which have very high adhesion levels for a performance road tyre which will contribute to effectiveness.
I don't mean this appraisal to be taken for bragging, I do sincerely mean they may well be OTT for road use only.
They're very easy to modulate though, this is typical of most multi-piston calipers.
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I know what you mean, I use my car mostly for track these days with R copmpoud tyres.
Unfortunately the pad is DS2500 for mine, but I will swap it for the Carbotech RP2, which I used for the last 3 years.
It is the second time that I've boiled my racing brake fluid RBF660.
I've murdered the stock Cupra calipers with Tarox F2000 345mm discs with RP2 so I needed something serious:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.org%2Fw9ig3ujmv%2FIMG_4688.jpg&hash=ef371cd8ab0c284c0d2ee4c2bf8abe440e27b154)
My only concern is: will it be enough or I will have to use some airducts to cool them down.
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Flash they look and sound awesome.
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I know what you mean, I use my car mostly for track these days with R copmpoud tyres.
Unfortunately the pad is DS2500 for mine, but I will swap it for the Carbotech RP2, which I used for the last 3 years.
It is the second time that I've boiled my racing brake fluid RBF660.
I've murdered the stock Cupra calipers with Tarox F2000 345mm discs with RP2 so I needed something serious:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs29.postimg.org%2Fw9ig3ujmv%2FIMG_4688.jpg&hash=ef371cd8ab0c284c0d2ee4c2bf8abe440e27b154)
My only concern is: will it be enough or I will have to use some airducts to cool them down.
That looks like the external piston boots torn & melted?
The AP calipers you'll get have internal seals so should be better.
I think you'll be getting serious brakes for sure!
If you don't mind me asking, where are you buying from?
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Flash they look and sound awesome.
It's fair to say they work well :signLOL: I have an afternoon track day lined up at Goodwood on May 16th which will be interesting. I have some experience here so it'll be a good comparison.
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4 Pots should be enough for 99.9% of people unless you are specifically going to give it some serious punishment on track.
I'm on R8 calipers with 362mm 2 piece AP race discs and Project Mu race pads, rears are 335mm A8 discs, supplied by Vagbremtechnic and fitted at Statller in Sheffield. Now these are serious! :evilgrin:
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I don't think you can have too much brakes!! :smiley:
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That looks like the external piston boots torn & melted?
The AP calipers you'll get have internal seals so should be better.
I think you'll be getting serious brakes for sure!
If you don't mind me asking, where are you buying from?
Yes it is melted, I've done this before, 2 years ago at Hungaroring, I think Carbotech pads are awesome, but the friction they generate is the cause of the heat.
I've bought them through my local supplier zztuning.ro.
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That looks like the external piston boots torn & melted?
The AP calipers you'll get have internal seals so should be better.
I think you'll be getting serious brakes for sure!
If you don't mind me asking, where are you buying from?
Yes it is melted, I've done this before, 2 years ago at Hungaroring, I think Carbotech pads are awesome, but the friction they generate is the cause of the heat.
I've bought them through my local supplier zztuning.ro.
Where I bought mine from (BG Developments, UK) they offered to fit racing seals in place of the standard ones. My understanding is that the standard seals are fine under normal circumstances for most people but under extremes you can choose to have these alternative seals fitted. Maybe a worthwhile consideration for you given your experiences?
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That's a good idea, I'll have to see if i can get some racing seals. Do you have the part-numbers?
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That's a good idea, I'll have to see if i can get some racing seals. Do you have the part-numbers?
I'm afraid not. I would imagine your supplier is buying from AP Racing in the UK since your lead time is the same as mine was. I think it's worth emailing AP Racing directly to ask them the question. They're quite responsive to emails so you should get what you need fairly easily.
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Email sent. ;)
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AP don't do race seals, they're the same road and track.
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I asked AP Racing about the seals. This is what they've told me:
"This is a road car caliper but we do list High temperature / Hydraulic race seals that will suit.
Seal kit # CP4900-CEJ ( 1 kit per caliper required, no dirt seals involved with this kit)"
I think that if i use this kit, the calipers will require constant cleaning. So I've decided not to use them.
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