MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Manu_R32 on November 24, 2009, 08:59:35 pm
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Has any one here had any experience with their intakes/products?? Hopefully be ordering a Ram Air System which i have been after for ages and was just wondering what you guys think of them??
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fl304%2Fclio_gib%2Fgruppem.jpg&hash=a1d91435caa783c356878db327af5f0669e08880)
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do you have links, a google search revealed all sorts nothing to do with intakes for me. Im presuming the filter is within the front ram scoop. Is the filter a cone or panel style in design.
prices etc.
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they aint cheap thaats all i know :signLOL:
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@manuR32
have you considered other intakes or are you keen to go another route as a change.
Because if it is expensive, and your not bothered about price then why not go for a twintake or ITG with have been proven to have big gains.
me personally, i would be dubious of spending alot of money on something thati havent seen many reviews on to base my decision on.
Still it could be very good though. Someone has to take the plunge first
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^^^ He's got an R32 so the ITG and Forge aren't available to him :wink:
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haha
the key is in the username, lol. what a mong
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Yeah forgot to mention...its for a .:R32...had a GTI before which is when i joined this forum but just cant get away from it so...still here :P
@ Simonskerton, heres a link to the intake,
https://www.gruppem.co.jp/onlinestore_en/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_24&products_id=529
Price is £600 delivered to Gibraltar....
:)
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never liked the look of that intake or the price.
What have the R32OC got fitted to there chariots?
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do you have links, a google search revealed all sorts nothing to do with intakes for me. Im presuming the filter is within the front ram scoop. Is the filter a cone or panel style in design.
prices etc.
It is a cone filter which sits at a 45 degree to the front of the car :smiley:
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^^^^
....And the carbon collects and funnels air from both the oem forward position and from behind the headlight area where there's much more air entering than we perhaps have hitherto realised.
GruppeM are very popular with BMW modders. Expensive for the GTI but I suspect it's more effective for a normally aspirated car.
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Im really hoping it will be worth the money, been trying to save for it since iv had the car and just keep spending the money on other things like alloys! Hopefully gonna have the car re-mapped some where in spain and hopefully have an exhaust fitted at the same time so lots to look forward to when i get home :)
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https://www.gruppem.co.jp/onlinestore_en/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_24&products_id=508
anyone for the gti version? 632.70 British pounds delivered
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Looks like a lovely bit of kit but the price is unbelievable :stupid: :stupid:
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....
As monkgti says, aftermarket intakes don't deliver a lot of gains but they are an important link in the chain and contribute efficiency to the whole package of performance mods.
Even if very expensive, there's no harm in spending it if you've got it available to spend - People spend much more on sound systems for example. If you enjoy it, that's all that matters. So when am I spending £5k on some carbon Dymag wheels?
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....
So when am I spending £5k on some carbon Dymag wheels?
When your pension comes through?
Just playing with you :grin:
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^^^^
:signLOL:
What pension? Can't you see I've spent it already? :laugh:
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^^^^
:signLOL:
What pension? Can't you see I've spent it already? :laugh:
I think you have about 20 years worth of pension money in carbon fibre alone Robin :laugh:
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I think you have about 20 years worth of pension money in carbon fibre alone Robin :laugh:
.... (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2Fshhhh_smiley.png&hash=41698fdc05cb0a2c195944f915d053ff8dd37626) Hush!
Peeps like Manu are catching me up though.
That GruppeM is hot eye-candy and will be doing some of what the Forge TWINtake does by drawing from two sources of air flow. Don't air intakes deliver more gains on normally aspirated cars?
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I think you have about 20 years worth of pension money in carbon fibre alone Robin :laugh:
.... (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2Fshhhh_smiley.png&hash=41698fdc05cb0a2c195944f915d053ff8dd37626) Hush!
Peeps like Manu are catching me up though.
That GruppeM is hot eye-candy and will be doing some of what the Forge TWINtake does by drawing from two sources of air flow. Don't air intakes deliver more gains on normally aspirated cars?
Peeps like Manu are 20 year old students that care more about their car than anything else lol
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I wonder how much the GruppeM intake would be if the cover wasn't CF.
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Peeps like Manu are 20 year old students that care more about their car than anything else lol
....And peeps like RedRobin are 60 year old gits who care more about their car than anything else. :grin:
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I wonder how much the GruppeM intake would be if the cover wasn't CF.
....^ A question which is quite often asked.
CF is certainly a relatively expensive material (depending on quality and application its needed for), but it's also expensive in terms of being very labour intensive to prepare and finish, and skill is also required. I know this because a good friend of mine works with CF and I've seen the processes first-hand. Very high standard formers/moulds also sometimes need to be made.
The alternative materials such as plastics may initially appear to be cheaper but they also can incur even higher initial tooling and manufacturing costs etc requiring very high volumes of sales.
When looking at the cost of CF products we tend to forget that the material has very good heat resistance properties which are valuable in an engine bay environment.
For quite irrational reasons which are difficult to define, carbonfibre as a decorative material simply has high value as eye-candy for some of us.
Whatever the material, all manufacturer's costs have to be clawed back and factored into the unit sales price to the consumer - Otherwise the manufacturer fails as a business and there ain't no useful product on offer. This is fundamentally why I tend to generally support producers and frown upon those who don't care two figs as long as they get something for next to nothing.
I rest my case for carbonfibre. :smiley:
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You'd knock out a vacuum forming mould for one of those in no time and for very little money. China would do them for 5p a go and Robert's your father's brother. If they had any sense as a business and true faith in their design they'd offer both - thus proving performance with mass market take up if it works and offering eye candy for the Magpies/name whores with the CF option.
Plastic is a terrible conductor of heat and don't forget it still in 99% of cases will use the OEM PLASTIC airbox that's wrapped around a nice hot engine... negating the point of the carbon against plastic. I'll bet pound to a penny there'd be no measurable difference in performance between the two if you used a clone mould.
So, because you're only paying for the name and the fact it's CF. It's not worth buying.
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^^^^
Very easy for you to say, sat in your armchair, Mike. I'd like to see you do it and survive as a business.
Whereas I appreciate "it's not worth buying" in your opinion, I really don't think you should make people feel they are "magpies/name whores" or other derogatory terms, if they buy the GruppeM.
Regardless of the 'good sense' and theory about saving money every which way you can, I wouldn't mind betting that if a company did offer the two alternatives of plastic and CF, they would still sell enough in CF.
Plastic is a terrible conductor of heat and don't forget it still in 99% of cases will use the OEM PLASTIC airbox that's wrapped around a nice hot engine... negating the point of the carbon against plastic. I'll bet pound to a penny there'd be no measurable difference in performance between the two if you used a clone mould.
....I was talking generally about CF in response to stealth's post. I agree that the GruppeM will probably be of more benefit if it fed directly to a pipe rather than via the oem plastic box.
I don't expect there would be significant difference in performance if GruppeM used plastic instead of CF, but I don't have any hesitation in deciding which I'd prefer to see under my hood.
Your whole approach is never to spend more money on anything if you can buy something similar for less, and mine is if I've got the money available and I want something then I simply buy it because I can't take the money with me - I'll doubtless die poor but very happy. I respect your attitude but I don't think the same way.
Bottom line is Each To Their Own :happy2: 8) :happy2:
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Group Buy anyone :happy2:
http://www.r32oc.com/group-buys/17659-gruppe-m-deal.html
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It isn't a go at your values Robin, more at the insanity of GruppeMs.
I buy the best regardless of looks or name - cost is the last factor.
GruppeM's business model:
Niche market of high end products - sell (purely for example) 100 units a month to a core market of people who WANT their product... doesn't matter what it does, so long as it's CF and says GruppeM.
Here's my version of their business model:
I take the same mould for CF intakes and produce a more affordable plastic range called "GruppeM Sport" and sell 1000 units a month on top of the 100 CF ones, because the kind of people who buy the CF will still always choose it. I open up a market to people who want the name but can't afford the CF.
Who do you think makes the most money?
Rolex sell probably a thousand times more of their cheapest range than the top end - why? Because people want the name. Does this reduce the amount of top end ones they sell?? no, because those with money will always want the most expensive/flashiest - the rest will mimic and aspire.
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The gruppe m was amazin on the type r mate, it does well on the M3 to, go for it! I expect it will sound awesome!
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It isn't a go at your values Robin, more at the insanity of GruppeMs.
I buy the best regardless of looks or name - cost is the last factor.
GruppeM's business model:
Niche market of high end products - sell (purely for example) 100 units a month to a core market of people who WANT their product... doesn't matter what it does, so long as it's CF and says GruppeM.
Here's my version of their business model:
I take the same mould for CF intakes and produce a more affordable plastic range called "GruppeM Sport" and sell 1000 units a month on top of the 100 CF ones, because the kind of people who buy the CF will still always choose it. I open up a market to people who want the name but can't afford the CF.
Who do you think makes the most money?
Rolex sell probably a thousand times more of their cheapest range than the top end - why? Because people want the name. Does this reduce the amount of top end ones they sell?? no, because those with money will always want the most expensive/flashiest - the rest will mimic and aspire.
....Yes, I agree with your thinking on the business model. It's well known that a 'top-end' costalot but ultra-cool product will invariably work as a flagship driving high sales of a cheaper product from the same brand. I think they call them Lost Leaders. I have heard said that the GTI does a lot for ordinary Golf sales even.
To some extent, perhaps some of us aspire to much higher powered cars via showing off our carbonfibre, even if we do so unconsciously. It's by association.
:happy2:
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Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.
I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.
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^^^^
CF's eye-candy factor is certainly a major influence - It's just something that appeals directly to some people's aesthetic senses but not to everyone's.
Somehow I bet that if GruppeM did offer a cheaper plastic version it would still be waaaay more expensive than most of the other CAI's.
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Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.
I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.
The heat reflective properties of CF (the most important thing you want from a CAI) are miles ahead of plastic. Other than Gold there isnt much else you could use to reflect heat so well!
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^^^^
APR's new intake for the 2.0T FSI is pictured as using CF piping as well as CF front ram filter housing.
A good friend gave me some of that gold tape but I don't think I'm brave enough to wrap my new Forge TWINtake's piping in it when it comes! jonnyc did though, but he's always looking for absolute max performance gains.
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Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.
I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.
The heat reflective properties of CF (the most important thing you want from a CAI) are miles ahead of plastic. Other than Gold there isnt much else you could use to reflect heat so well!
In terms of the pipework, I completely agree - but for an airbox, it only matters when stood still and heatsoaking... having air rammed into either a carbon or plastic airbox at xx(x?) MPH and neither are getting anything even close to warm. Thus it doesn't need to be carbon.
Hell, get a plastic one and wrap it in DEI gold tape if you must, it'll still cost hundreds of pounds less and perform exactly the same.
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Rolex sell probably a thousand times more of their cheapest range than the top end - why? Because people want the name. Does this reduce the amount of top end ones they sell?? no, because those with money will always want the most expensive/flashiest - the rest will mimic and aspire.
But even the "cheap" rolex's are alot more than a normal watch, so if they released a plastic version it would still have to be 30/40% more than other products in the market for them to hold that exclusivity and people to perceive them as a luxury/best of the best brand. its very difficult to hold both ends of a market i.e expensive and cheap.
just my 2pence :smiley:
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Oh of course, they'd not want to cheapen the brand name - so it'd have to live up to it's bigger brother's bold claims of being the best in terms of performance.
EVOMS is what £350 for a K04 car?? People would pay £400 if it was proven to be better - no problems.
Funny old world eh!
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Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.
I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.
+2
Only time I'd touch it would be for genuine weight saving purposes e.g. a bonnet (a proper VWRacing one, not a skinned GRP one) and even then I'd paint it!
And I'm with Mike, if you want shield against heat soak stick to Gold.
Carbon fibre is bonded with polymer based resin - Carbon-fibre reinforced plastic. Thermal conductivity of plastic (ABS,PolyProp et al) and CF are pretty close (we're talking 10ths per unit of thermal conductivity). So no real advantage. The carbon fibres are actually pretty good conductors in the own right, which is why graphite fishing rods and over-head power lines aren't a good combination.
In terms of thermal radiation, black is also the worst colour. What colour is CF? A gloss clear-coat might help a tad but you'll never beat a proper shiny metallic finish for decent insulation against radiation.
And isn't the same true of the Carbonio? I've always wondered why they don't offer a plastic version of that. Like T_D says, you have youre every-day high volume product that costs little but sells in high volume, then you have high value low volume flagship. If VW only made the R32 or Ford the RS, they wouldn't be in business very long. Infact, the Mk1 RS was sold at a loss!
Just my 5 penneth worth - I like function over form. As Robin says, each to their own. It's your money. The GruppeM sounds insane on the M3, if you can afford it - why not?
While we're on the subject of aesthetics - why-oh-why is the WALK kit anodised in GOLD?! :sick: Mine is going to get power-coated in black!
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All valid points, at the end of the day there are loads of induction kits and they will all give around the same figures. I had a CF ITG on my CTR, i saved about £300 over a Gruppe M and got around 3-4bhp less than other CTR's with the same mods but gruppe m.
Although thats not much if you go after big figures it could be the difference between 295bhp or 300bhp, just depends how much thats worth to you really. I would buy the gruppe m if i had the cash as im a fan of CF (apart from the carbon rash you get when working with it lol) it sounds amazing and looks awesome.
Out of interest doesnt K&N make the filter for them?
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^^^^
Yes, the Brand is extremely important and it's continually judged according to the last product it was attached to. Skoda is now so much more highly regarded as a brand but it has had to earn it.
The brand works as a perceived guarantee and reassurance to the consumer that what's on offer is good and reliable etc etc. Brands such as VW, BMW, Audi, Porsche, etc, each give us either trust or mistrust in the product according to our individual experiences and, to some extent, our herd instincts. [You may have noticed that I'm a good example of someone who is particularly low on herd instincts].
Regarding herd instincts, please enjoy this : -
Brands are also subject to fashion and what's currently considered cool.
When I had time to work I used to be very highly paid as a consultant on such matters, but I better stop spouting a thesis.
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Brands are also subject to fashion and what's currently considered cool.
Like Carbon Fibre induction kits?
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CARBON-COLD-AIR-INDUCTION-KIT-WITH-TURBO-FAN-INTAKE_W0QQitemZ400081958171QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5d26be351b
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Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.
I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.
+2
Only time I'd touch it would be for genuine weight saving purposes e.g. a bonnet (a proper VWRacing one, not a skinned GRP one) and even then I'd paint it!
....The VWR one wasn't available when I bought my double-skinned OSIR bonnet - Which I painted (externally) and I would have painted a VWR one too. I still sometimes wonder why I bought it! I don't have any regrets whatsoever but all it's given me is that it's a joy to lift being so light (I'm an OAP) and it saves a relatively tiny amount of overall weight and has an extract vent. Actually the vent is probably its most valuable feature. Oh, the other thing is that I don't have to worry about stone chips creating potential rust spots.
On a road car as opposed to a full-on competition car, CF definitely does major on eye-candy rather than function. But that doesn't bother me as I've spent my whole working life as a professional designer - We are hardwired into eye-candy - Ask VC. It's nice to get a wee bit of functionality though from one's carbonfibre addiction.
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Brands are also subject to fashion and what's currently considered cool.
Like Carbon Fibre induction kits?
....Absolutely! :happy2: 8) :happy2:
I expect that Forge could easily have produced their straightforward filter enclosure shapes in plastic on their TWINtake but happily for me they used CF. They probably did use CF for having some slight material advantages as well but I'm not party to their design development so I don't actually know.
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CARBON-COLD-AIR-INDUCTION-KIT-WITH-TURBO-FAN-INTAKE_W0QQitemZ400081958171QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5d26be351b
^^^^ Interesting. Reading it, how many times is the word "carbonfibre" mentioned? They are selling their whole product on it using carbonfibre! No mention of which cars it's suitable for nor the other components. They are trading on the common fashion for CF. It's also an example where I am somewhat put off by the low price - They either have to shift stock because they can't sell them or it's too cheaply manufactured which may be reflected in poor quality.
:rolleye: Another reason why I GENERALLY think the eBay brand is sh*te and have no trust in those using it unless I already know them as trustworthy. Oli is now going to remind me that I met him on eBay :grin:
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Some may know me well enough to know I'm not a huge fan of CF. Hence if GruppeM did a non-CF version, I'd be considering it up along with the other CAIs.
I can't help but feel the CF is more for the eye-candy than function.
+2
Only time I'd touch it would be for genuine weight saving purposes e.g. a bonnet (a proper VWRacing one, not a skinned GRP one) and even then I'd paint it!
....The VWR one wasn't available when I bought my double-skinned OSIR bonnet - Which I painted (externally) and I would have painted a VWR one too. I still sometimes wonder why I bought it! I don't have any regrets whatsoever but all it's given me is that it's a joy to lift being so light (I'm an OAP) and it saves a relatively tiny amount of overall weight and has an extract vent. Actually the vent is probably its most valuable feature. Oh, the other thing is that I don't have to worry about stone chips creating potential rust spots.
On a road car as opposed to a full-on competition car, CF definitely does major on eye-candy rather than function. But that doesn't bother me as I've spent my whole working life as a professional designer - We are hardwired into eye-candy - Ask VC. It's nice to get a wee bit of functionality though from one's carbonfibre addiction.
Sorry Robin, that wasn't intended to be direct dig, I thought you had the VWR bonnet. As an Industrial Designer I sort of straddle the world of aethetics and form following function... A never ending internal battle between Engineer and Designer (My Masters covered both fields). And having worked in both areas (worked in branding and graphic design for a while) I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from Robin! :drinking:
Jules, that ebay post is fantastic - that description couldn't funnier.
What I also missed in my above post, is that it's not just about weight with CF. A carbon air box won't be substantially lighter than a plastic one anyway, but it terms of strength to weight ratio, it is much better. This is sometimes overlooked when discussing properties of CF. But, why would you need an airbox to be any stronger than a plastic one? You're just paying over the odds for an over engineered product - IMHO.
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CARBON-COLD-AIR-INDUCTION-KIT-WITH-TURBO-FAN-INTAKE_W0QQitemZ400081958171QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5d26be351b
are they for real. Is it really that good :rolleye:. think ill sell my ITG then. :stupid:
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Sorry Robin, that wasn't intended to be direct dig, I thought you had the VWR bonnet. As an Industrial Designer I sort of straddle the world of aethetics and form following function... A never ending internal battle between Engineer and Designer (My Masters covered both fields). And having worked in both areas (worked in branding and graphic design for a while) I can certainly appreciate where you are coming from Robin! :drinking:
....Hey! No problem, I didn't read it as a dig and anyway you are allowed to dig or disagree with me as many others frequently do!
I noticed a while ago that I felt a certain affinity with many of your posts. It was clearly your designer genes! That's "genes" and not "jeans".
Re herd instincts and your forum name being "animal" I just added this to my earlier post : -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vItQtTZTcAk
I hope we'll meet some time :drinking:
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Likewise Robin. Unfortunately, despite being 15 mins from Surrey RR, I can't make this weekend which is real shame.
And my alias comes from an old association with the brand back in my mountain biking days :happy2:
But now we are well... (https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fffoc.co.uk%2Fmodules%2FForums%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fofftopic.gif&hash=6c16e808897ed9383c8946f43f699744b8efb7a8) :wink:
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It has finally been ordered! Its cost me in total £650 delivered to Gibraltar! Gets there in about a week and im still stuck in uni for another two weeks....cant wait to get home...will keep you guys posted :)
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Not entirely related to the GruppeM product, but kind of to the discussion going on here (and certainly no slight at anyone's decision to get a GruppeM or any other product...) but working as an engineer, and having to deal with marketing/business people, and the outside world, I've found that it's perfectly valid and viable to have an entire business plan or strategy based upon crazy people.
Case(s) in point:
The Lamborghini is nothing more than a rebodied Murcielago - a decade old car - with some fancy graphics. They still managed to sell 20 of them at 1.1m Euros a pop.
Koenigsegg (or however you spell it) sell (IIRC) less than 20 vehicles a year - yet they're doing alright.
Bristol Cars manage to sell maybe one car a decade, yet still have got a prime location showroom in Kensington and stay alive.
Business plans based on selling at very low volumes at very high prices to crazy people work.
The Rolex analogy doesn't really work - Rolex are semi-mass market, trading on name and perceived quality. They're almost like the Porsche of watches - desirous, but common enough that they're not really rare. A more apt comparison might be to a watch manufacturer like Ulysse-Nardin, who's average watch price is 20,000 Euros or so - they're about as common as the Reventon (i.e., you'll see one or two in London or Geneva or Paris but very few elsewhere).
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^^^^
Good point, Neo!
Long live the crazy people!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb308%2FRedRobin_05%2FNormalWorriesMe.jpg&hash=0e1d37c5f2d2f951f692319ece362a0bc215049d)