MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: Stooey on March 21, 2015, 07:58:32 am
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I'm planning on going from stock to stage 2+ soon as have all the hardware but wondering if I will require an uprated clutch? I could in theory be running around 290 bhp and 360lbft
Cheers
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360ft lb.......err YES! :happy2:
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You will need one eventually. But niki can put different map settings on if it does start to slip, but then you'll be driving around with less power than it's capable of.. And that hurts lol. If you can afford one defo get one.
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Niki is the master, but yes get a clutch buddy
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Cheers for the reply guys, is it best to get the clutch before the map incase it starts slipping thilst getting mapped and not being able to be tunned to its full potential?
Also what clutch is recommended for it? I he's alot of folk on about helex clutches
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Well if it does start slipping he will map it down scale however he will say no doubt get clutch and bring it back and won't charge you as much I'm sure he is the best tuner I have ever met great guy and so genuine. When my ecu locked out he swapped it with a spare he had and I'm so great full.
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Well if it does start slipping he will map it down scale however he will say no doubt get clutch and bring it back and won't charge you as much
That's very fair but I will be heading down from Scotland so only plan to do it once haha
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No point in adding the stage 2+ mods if your only going to scale it back. Go hard or go home :party: (and buy a Helix clutch from ALEX @ AKS)
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What hardware have u bought dude?
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I have a jetex 3" turbo back with sports cat, twintercooler, just a carbonio with piper ross filter but looking for an upgrade and also just bought a new loba hpfp
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No point in adding the stage 2+ mods if your only going to scale it back. Go hard or go home :party: (and buy a Helix clutch from ALEX @ AKS)
+1 :happy2:
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Anybody know roughly how much the clutch is? Just so I have a target to save to lol
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£460 ish plus flywheel, bolts, slave cylinder and labour.
Budget £900 - £1000
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Standard fuel pump is plenty good enough for k03 car dude, the upgrade pumps are more for the k04 set ups if you want to surpass the 300bhp barrier, k03's aren't good for 300bhp+ so no need for upgrade pump.. Other bits sound good though :happy2:
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Standard fuel pump is plenty good enough for k03 car dude, the upgrade pumps are more for the k04 set ups if you want to surpass the 300bhp barrier, k03's aren't good for 300bhp+ so no need for upgrade pump.. Other bits sound good though :happy2:
Really? On r tech's site they say the mid range can be massivly improved with an upgraded hpfp??
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Standard fuel pump is plenty good enough for k03 car dude, the upgrade pumps are more for the k04 set ups if you want to surpass the 300bhp barrier, k03's aren't good for 300bhp+ so no need for upgrade pump.. Other bits sound good though :happy2:
Really? On r tech's site they say the mid range can be massivly improved with an upgraded hpfp??
You'll need a HPFP for stage2+. A HPFP is even a benefit on a stock car! :happy2:
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You'll need a HPFP for stage2+. A HPFP is even a benefit on a stock car! :happy2:
Thank god for that, I thought for a second inhave just wasted alot on money haha
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Ok dude, if that's what they say I am no one to argue! It's just that With all that extra fuel pressure and extra air you will be working the smaller turbo very hard, but I suppose it's all down to your right foot if you know what I mean!
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Defo do the clutch first. I didn't and it consequently slipped on the dyno, skewing the results.
Defo fit a pump. My original one (Ed30) was only able to supply enough fuel for 280hp and with the Lambda adjustment maxed out (+25%). This is why a dyno tune is so important. With a generic flash you won't know if your pump is up to the job unless you data log the rail pressure afterwards, and not everyone has VCDS. On the dyno you can monitor rail pressure on the fly, which is far safer.
Interestingly, a lot of MK6s and 7s seem to be throwing rail pressure fault codes when mapped, and similarly, new standard pumps on mapped MK5s do the same. VW must have done something to them as with the older cars, some are fine past 300hp, some aren't. Do the pump anyway and forget it!
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I can only speak for myself buddy, I don't see the point of it personally. If money's no object to you and you want to squeeze every drop of power you can from the ko3 then do it. I think people get a bit carried away with stage this and stage that, it's just a way tuners can sell their services with set prices and appeal to customers more. All that's really needed for great gains on a ko3 is a turbo back exhaust with sports cat, (which will sound great) a decent cold air intake (which will also sound great) and a decent map, and if it's not mapped to its absolute limits your standard hardware is fine. Decent tyres with the right pressure, stiffer suspension and maybe a sports front engine mount will all add to the overall performance and you'll have a quick car without worrying about eating clutches and smoking turbo's. Then there's the fact that you've paid out hundreds of pounds on a fuel pump and you can only ever have 10% of its potential! It's just my opinion dude and I do admit I'm a bit of a square when it comes to the old cost to gain ratio... Feel free to rubbish my thoughts people, I really don't mind :signLOL:
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Maybe a silly question but would a stage 2 k03 require an uprated clutch? If not I may sell my loba hpfp
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I can only speak for myself buddy, I don't see the point of it personally. If money's no object to you and you want to squeeze every drop of power you can from the ko3 then do it. I think people get a bit carried away with stage this and stage that, it's just a way tuners can sell their services with set prices and appeal to customers more. All that's really needed for great gains on a ko3 is a turbo back exhaust with sports cat, (which will sound great) a decent cold air intake (which will also sound great) and a decent map, and if it's not mapped to its absolute limits your standard hardware is fine. Decent tyres with the right pressure, stiffer suspension and maybe a sports front engine mount will all add to the overall performance and you'll have a quick car without worrying about eating clutches and smoking turbo's. Then there's the fact that you've paid out hundreds of pounds on a fuel pump and you can only ever have 10% of its potential! It's just my opinion dude and I do admit I'm a bit of a square when it comes to the old cost to gain ratio... Feel free to rubbish my thoughts people, I really don't mind :signLOL:
What Jay has said does sound like sense to me. The K03 cannot supply air volume anything like the K04, the K04 only needs a pump at stage 2+ which is around 340bhp upwards. Bearing in mind to make power you need fuel and air in a certain ratio, why would a K03 providing less air than a K04 need more fuel ?.
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You're all forgetting that the pump is driven mechanically by the engine. Whilst the standard pump can supply fuel for 360hp at 6000 rpm, at 3000 rpm it can only make half that. (Or thereabouts)
On a K03, going stage 2+ allows more torque and more grunt below 4k rpm. Above that I couldn't really notice a difference. Not the same bang for your buck compared to a K04 but it's certainly not a waste.
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You're all forgetting that the pump is driven mechanically by the engine. Whilst the standard pump can supply fuel for 360hp at 6000 rpm, at 3000 rpm it can only make half that. (Or thereabouts)
On a K03, going stage 2+ allows more torque and more grunt below 4k rpm. Above that I couldn't really notice a difference. Not the same bang for your buck compared to a K04 but it's certainly not a waste.
I'm still not quite understanding the logic, the pump is mechanically driven, so say for example at 3000rpm it produces 40bar, as it is mechanically driven it will always produce 40, that is fixed by the pump being driven by the camshaft. Now at 3000rpm the ecu wants 30 bar, the electronic valves in the pump give 30 to the rail, the rest is bled off I assume. Now a stock pump can deliver enough fuel to support a stage 2 k04 at 2000, 3000, 4000 etcrpm, which on stage 2 will produce more midrange and top end power than a k03 in any state of tune, so if it can support a k04 delivering more air everywhere than a K03 how can the same pump not support a K03 delivering less air and thus power and torque throughout the Rev range ?. As jay said he will have a pump producing say 50bar at 3000rpm but the tune will only ever need 30bar for example, which both the stock and updated pump can both deliver. So he's never going to demand more from a new pump than the stock one can produce. all be it on a minute scale a uprated pump will require more pumping force and therefore power from the engine via the camshaft. It will take more power to drive the uprated pump. Prob a negligible loss but we all know what difference turning on the air conditioning pump does to the mpg. But I don't see any reason to use engine power to pump fuel at a pressure you will never use, not to mention the cost of the pump.... :jumping:
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Going by all this argument I gather t uprated clutch would be needed whether I have a loba hpfp or standard?
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^^^^ Plan and budget for an Organic clutch but wait till you've had your car mapped to see if she slips, if your lucky you may be ok.
:happy2:
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^^^^ Plan and budget for an Organic clutch but wait till you've had your car mapped to see if she slips, if your lucky you may be ok.
:happy2:
Could it not end up slipping during the mapping process therefore not being able to be mapped correctly?
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You're all forgetting that the pump is driven mechanically by the engine. Whilst the standard pump can supply fuel for 360hp at 6000 rpm, at 3000 rpm it can only make half that. (Or thereabouts)
On a K03, going stage 2+ allows more torque and more grunt below 4k rpm. Above that I couldn't really notice a difference. Not the same bang for your buck compared to a K04 but it's certainly not a waste.
I'm still not quite understanding the logic, the pump is mechanically driven, so say for example at 3000rpm it produces 40bar, as it is mechanically driven it will always produce 40, that is fixed by the pump being driven by the camshaft. Now at 3000rpm the ecu wants 30 bar, the electronic valves in the pump give 30 to the rail, the rest is bled off I assume. Now a stock pump can deliver enough fuel to support a stage 2 k04 at 2000, 3000, 4000 etcrpm, which on stage 2 will produce more midrange and top end power than a k03 in any state of tune, so if it can support a k04 delivering more air everywhere than a K03 how can the same pump not support a K03 delivering less air and thus power and torque throughout the Rev range ?. As jay said he will have a pump producing say 50bar at 3000rpm but the tune will only ever need 30bar for example, which both the stock and updated pump can both deliver. So he's never going to demand more from a new pump than the stock one can produce. all be it on a minute scale a uprated pump will require more pumping force and therefore power from the engine via the camshaft. It will take more power to drive the uprated pump. Prob a negligible loss but we all know what difference turning on the air conditioning pump does to the mpg. But I don't see any reason to use engine power to pump fuel at a pressure you will never use, not to mention the cost of the pump.... :jumping:
If you look at stage 2 ed30, it is only making big power at the top of the Rev range where that pump can shift the volume of fuel.
Niki @ R-Tech explained to me that the stock HPFP could flow enough fuel for 400bhp, however it would need 9,000RPM+ to do it :signLOL:
K04 is massively restricted in the mid range with the stock HPFP which is why most stage 1 graphs typically follow the stock curves. My old Stage 1.5 ed30 was only using 55% of the turbo in the mid range - because of the stock HPFP.
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You're all forgetting that the pump is driven mechanically by the engine. Whilst the standard pump can supply fuel for 360hp at 6000 rpm, at 3000 rpm it can only make half that. (Or thereabouts)
On a K03, going stage 2+ allows more torque and more grunt below 4k rpm. Above that I couldn't really notice a difference. Not the same bang for your buck compared to a K04 but it's certainly not a waste.
I'm still not quite understanding the logic, the pump is mechanically driven, so say for example at 3000rpm it produces 40bar, as it is mechanically driven it will always produce 40, that is fixed by the pump being driven by the camshaft. Now at 3000rpm the ecu wants 30 bar, the electronic valves in the pump give 30 to the rail, the rest is bled off I assume. Now a stock pump can deliver enough fuel to support a stage 2 k04 at 2000, 3000, 4000 etcrpm, which on stage 2 will produce more midrange and top end power than a k03 in any state of tune, so if it can support a k04 delivering more air everywhere than a K03 how can the same pump not support a K03 delivering less air and thus power and torque throughout the Rev range ?. As jay said he will have a pump producing say 50bar at 3000rpm but the tune will only ever need 30bar for example, which both the stock and updated pump can both deliver. So he's never going to demand more from a new pump than the stock one can produce. all be it on a minute scale a uprated pump will require more pumping force and therefore power from the engine via the camshaft. It will take more power to drive the uprated pump. Prob a negligible loss but we all know what difference turning on the air conditioning pump does to the mpg. But I don't see any reason to use engine power to pump fuel at a pressure you will never use, not to mention the cost of the pump.... :jumping:
It's not peak airflow numbers, you need to look at airflow at a given RPM. The K03 kicks in a lot earlier than a K04, at a part of the RPM range where the pump will/does struggle to deliver enough fuel. With Stage2+ on my K03 i'm able to run more boost pressure at lower RPM (below 4k rpm) than i could at stage 2, as i now have the fuel to go with it, as i can now run 130 BAR of fuel pressure (opposed to 110BAR), as the HPFP can keep up. My baby K03 now runs pretty much flat out the entire RPM range and is very much the limiting factor of my setup.
If you are worried about bang for buck, or ££££ per HP, then no a HPFP is not the way to go. In my opinion, WMI is a much bigger benefit and the kit is half the cost of a Loba HPFP. All depends what you want from your setup, i wanted to max out the K03 as far as possible so i went 2+.
The point i was making is that it isn't a complete waste, but it is only beneficial at lower RPM, as above 4k rpm the airflow demands can be matched with fuel by the OE pump. On a K04 this doesn't happen until much higher in the RPM range, so the K04 is much more compromsied and for a much larger RPM range.
Would be useful if Niki could drop i nto explain as i'm sure he will explain it much better than i can
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Standard pump can do the pressure but not the flow.
Peak boost and cylinder fill occurs in the midrange, which is why you need the full meat from both pumps in that all important 3 - 5.5K rev band. You don't need as much fuel at the top end as you do in the midrange.
This is precisely what Loba and APR address with their pumps. More flow. My Loba is run @ 115 bar to make 340hp (Ed30), but my stock pump threw the towel in at 300hp, running @ 130 bar. My tuner has done numerous TFSIs and some are OK with the standard pump, some aren't. There's no rhyme or reason to it! So it's best to try a live map (whilst monitoring the lambda and rail pressure channels) and see what gives. If you need a pump, you need a pump.
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This has turned into an interesting thread and a good read, for me the hpfp on the KO3 just isn't worth it for what you get from your car at the end of it and maxing out your hardware (turbo, clutch) is not something you want to do on any car really.
It's easy to get excited about about what other members have done to their cars and what bhp and torque figures they achieved after mapping, but a good question to ask yourself is... If this site was strictly for ko3 cars how much talk about hpfp's would there be and therefore how influenced would I be to buy one? I would personally advise anyone wanting a lot more power to get a ko4 car in the first place instead of killing your ko3, for someone who already has a hpfp ready to go on and is thinking of uprating the clutch a turbo conversion is the obvious next step, PSi Tuning do the upgrade for around £1500 with all the mapping thrown in, I think that's a great price considering what you can pay for a map alone (300 - 600 quid!)
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I have now sold my hpfp as dan_fr said his k03 is running flat out pretty much all the time and as you said it cant really be good maxing out the components, I will only go to a stage 2 for now and look at a k04 upgrade in the future I think :sad1:
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Good decision dude! You're still going to have a quick car at stage 2, and the money you save can go to other things, coilovers maybe? Get it looking sweeeet! :happy2:
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This has turned into an interesting thread and a good read, for me the hpfp on the KO3 just isn't worth it for what you get from your car at the end of it and maxing out your hardware (turbo, clutch) is not something you want to do on any car really.
It's easy to get excited about about what other members have done to their cars and what bhp and torque figures they achieved after mapping, but a good question to ask yourself is... If this site was strictly for ko3 cars how much talk about hpfp's would there be and therefore how influenced would I be to buy one? I would personally advise anyone wanting a lot more power to get a ko4 car in the first place instead of killing your ko3, for someone who already has a hpfp ready to go on and is thinking of uprating the clutch a turbo conversion is the obvious next step, PSi Tuning do the upgrade for around £1500 with all the mapping thrown in, I think that's a great price considering what you can pay for a map alone (300 - 600 quid!)
I am right at this fork in the road for tuning my edition 30. At present I have a filter and a full Miltek and the appropriate stage 2 map, I got the car from a main dealer so it has a warranty, they fitted a new clutch before I bought it so the standard clutch is working fine and the car is very fast !. The next step would def be a clutch, fuel pump, interccoler, so a load of cash. I am hearing that the updrated clutches are hard to push, i know induction kits make more noise, the hpfp are heavy on the cam follower for wear. Knowing me and my need to tinker I will prob do more to it. However I have a sneaky feeling if I do I will look back and say what I have now was the sweet spot between power, mods, cost and engine wear etc etc. :grin: :grin:
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This has turned into an interesting thread and a good read, for me the hpfp on the KO3 just isn't worth it for what you get from your car at the end of it and maxing out your hardware (turbo, clutch) is not something you want to do on any car really.
It's easy to get excited about about what other members have done to their cars and what bhp and torque figures they achieved after mapping, but a good question to ask yourself is... If this site was strictly for ko3 cars how much talk about hpfp's would there be and therefore how influenced would I be to buy one? I would personally advise anyone wanting a lot more power to get a ko4 car in the first place instead of killing your ko3, for someone who already has a hpfp ready to go on and is thinking of uprating the clutch a turbo conversion is the obvious next step, PSi Tuning do the upgrade for around £1500 with all the mapping thrown in, I think that's a great price considering what you can pay for a map alone (300 - 600 quid!)
I am right at this fork in the road for tuning my edition 30. At present I have a filter and a full Miltek and the appropriate stage 2 map, I got the car from a main dealer so it has a warranty, they fitted a new clutch before I bought it so the standard clutch is working fine and the car is very fast !. The next step would def be a clutch, fuel pump, interccoler, so a load of cash. I am hearing that the updrated clutches are hard to push, i know induction kits make more noise, the hpfp are heavy on the cam follower for wear. Knowing me and my need to tinker I will prob do more to it. However I have a sneaky feeling if I do I will look back and say what I have now was the sweet spot between power, mods, cost and engine wear etc etc. :grin: :grin:
sounds like you have a quick car already fella, over 300bhp by the sounds of it. If it was mine I would concentrate on getting it mint and looking awesome (paintwork, coilovers, sweet wheels etc) unless it already is of course! I read about ed30 cars on here being 350 bhp and above with all the hardware to make it happen and can't help but wonder.. How the heck do these guys get all that power down on the road through a front wheel drive car? especially in this country where it's wet and slimy most of the time.
The truth is a lot of the power is lost because they just can't hold the road like a rear or 4 wheel drive can. I owned a VR6 Golf for 7 years (pvw front cover April 2007) with coilovers, sports front mount, full exhaust and cold air intake and i surprised a few people with a lot more horsepower than me because I got every scrap of power I had onto the road, and it was only 200bhp!
Something to consider i think buddy.