Author Topic: BSH Engine Mounts Review Update 2/12/09 page 3  (Read 20706 times)

Offline QD MBE

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 15
  • -Receive: 102
  • Posts: 2497
BSH Engine Mounts Review Update 2/12/09 page 3
« on: November 28, 2009, 06:31:02 PM »
www.mk5golfgti.co.uk

BSH Billet Transmission and Side Engine Mounts Review

1 INTRODUCTION

We spend £’s trying to get more horsepower from our cars, we spend £’s trying to make the chassis handle better, and the car stop better.  What about the engine to chassis interface?

I personally did not like the power take up in my car, my car is not mapped, however the engine lurched back and forth under power, this torque reaction is a by-product of a rotating mass.  The Torque reaction has several undesirable effects, it can at its extreme give exhaust mounts and exhaust welds a hard time.

Web based blurb on the STD VW mounts (taken from the VF site)

The VW factory transmission mount was designed as a soft flexible mount to provide a very comfortable drive. Its drawback was the large amount of engine movement allowed under torque load and on hard acceleration. This engine "slop" greatly decreases stability and smoothness under high performance driving conditions and rapid gear selection.

The VW factory mount is hydraulic and constructed from rubber vulcanized onto a steel plate. The rubber cavity contains a viscous oil which dampens shock and vibration loaded onto the mount via the transmission. Typically over a period of time failure occurs when the rubber cracks leaking out the oil. VF engineers chose to redesign this mount by eliminating the oil and designing the mount using a single piece of polyurethane instead of rubber. The new design is setup for longevity and stability.


I have the VWR lower mount fitted, this was not at my behest, but was carried out by VWR to cure a problem.

I was talking to Ben at Dubtek about catch cans and all such items, and he mentioned he had some BSH mounts on their way.

CHOICES

I have been looking at several sets of mounts recently.  The main 2 being VWR and BSH.  There are others such as VF Engineering,

VWR

http://www.volkswagenracing.co.uk



I had a look at the mounts when at VWR last time, I always felt that they were over-priced.  They look adequately made, however I feel have too many parts, especially the engine side mount (far right in above pic).  The main reason I have not fitted them before is the cost. Circa £500 for the 2 engine mounts (not including the rear lower mount (Subframe mount)).

BSH



http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/product.php?productid=16996&cat=503&page=1

I had a look at a set of these mounts, and the manufacture that has been carried out is very impressive.  Circa £180 from Dubtek on this forum, with all required fixings supplied (not withstanding the charcoal cannister mod - Circa £1).

http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=8294.0



On the BSH Site picture they don’t look too substantial, but when in hand they are a mean piece of kit.

VF Eng look very similar to the BSH variants

http://www.vf-accessories.com/acc_vw_mk5mounts.php



FITTING

One concern I had was the fact that the BSH test car would not have had a charcoal canister.  

I started with the engine side mount first.

To get to it I unshipped the coolant expansion tank, and removed the charcoal canister.   The canister is mounted by 3 points, 2 bolts and 1 nut.



In the above pic, you can see the 3 mounts in the mid picture.  I have highlighted this due to further work later.

I took the weight of the engine, by placing a jack under the lip of the sump (where it is bolted to the block) and jacked it slightly.

The mount is secured to the block by 2 bolts and to the car chassis by two bolts.  There is also a strap that adds further rigidity, which is bolted to the inner wing.

I removed the mount, and fitted the BSH item.  The mount bolts are torque loaded.  I used the 3 BSH mounts and one of the removed VW bolts.  The bolt I used can be seen in the above picture, with a stud on the bolt head.  This stud is a securing point for the canister.



Above shows the mount fitted.  With the VW bolt in the fore ground, showing the stud.  Also in the left of the picture you can see the extra strap for rigidity.  I Believe that VWR also use this method.  In the picture it also looks like the Aircon pipe is close to the mount strap bolt, there is 3/4" clearance there.

I secured the canister by manufacturing a simple stay, to run from the extra strap bolt (left of pic) to canister.  I also used a stud connector, I bought this today from my local hardware for the princely sum of 18p.  I bought 3 actually, so if you need one, give me a shout.



I fitted this on the mount stud and used an M6 allen bolt and secured the canister.



You can see 2 of the 3 canister mounts in this picture.

Mount fully fitted



Engine side-mount torque values

Mount to Chassis – 30 Lbs/ft
Mount to engine block – 44Lbs/ft
Mount Top Bolt – 30 Lbs/ft
Mount strap to body – 18Lbs/ft


Gearbox mount

The gearbox mount is somewhat simpler.  You have to remove the battery, and the battery tray.  



The tray is secured by 3 x 6mm bolts.  You have to remove it by lifting and twisting.



In the above picture you can see the 3 bolts securing the mount to the gearbox, and the 4 bolts securing the mount to the chassis.  

Torque values

Mount to chassis – 30 Lbs/ft
Mount to Transmission – 44 Lbs/ft
Mount center bolt – 30 Lbs/ft


Conclusions

The mounts are not supplied with any comprehensive instructions, nor are there any on the BSH site.  However the instructions would be in the vein of simply remove the 4 bolts securing the mount and refit.

The task to fit is easy, however there is some degree of fabrication involved to secure the Charcoal canister.  This is simple to do however, with the use of a simple strap, and a stud connector.

The car seems to start easier.  There is increased vibration, and feedback from the engine.  The gearshift is more positive.  The transmission slop has totally disappeared, and the power take-up is more positive and less wooley.  This was my main reason for fit, and I am happy that it has had the desired effect.

One of the slight downsides is the increased noise in the cabin.  All engine running and associated noises are transmitted into the cabin.  This has already started to settle down, and I hope it carries on doing so.

The mounts are very very well made, and it is obvious that a lot of development has gone into them.  If cost was not an option; I would still opt for the BSH variants.  I am sure the VWR and others are as good, it is however my opinion, that the BSH items aesthetically are better and also better manufactured, and are certainly up to the job.  I also think that spares will be readily available, albeit from the States.

I am very happy with the mounts, and can at the moment live with the vibration and extra noise, i am sure they will settle down further soon.

Maintenance required

As will any Mod, there is extra maintenance.  In this case there is a once only check torque after 200miles.  Although prudent as with any upgrade and diversion away from OEM to check the condition regularly.














Taken from a VW Vortex thread

Cold Start Impressions: You can feel a decent amount of vibration in the seats/steering wheel/shifter. On a scale of 1 to 10, one being stock, 10 being it feels like an earthquake in my car, this would be a 4. The VF mounts (with the one touching the engine like stated in a post way up top) would be a 7. Normal VF mounts would probably be a 3 from other people's reviews.

So I let it sit and idle while I cleaned up shop and then after it was up to temp I sat in it. Vibration is almost all gone. A little hint of it, but not nearly as much as at high idle in cold condition. I revved the engine and let it decel down and it lights off at about 1100 to 1200 RPM's. If you think about cold idle, which is roughly at that speed, it explains the high vibration (it hits resonance at roughly 1100-1200 RPM's and cold idle is at about the same...who would've thought). No other areas in which it vibrates like crazy though. Slightly more vibration at other RPM's but nothing worth mentioning.

Engine tone is different. Not a bad kind of different though.

Short Driving Impressions: I drove from the garage up to the house, a whole 150 feet or so. Its louder. For sure. Now, I have been told to let it "break in" so I am going to give it a few thousand miles and make better judgement then. I don't know how to describe it though. It was only a really short drive though, so I need to go on a longer one. Which is happening....

NOW! Be back in about 20 minutes!

(30 minutes later on golfmkv.com)

Sorry, I'm late...lol!

I didn't want to stop!!!

Added Noise - Okay, in all honesty, if you have kids or are have NVH ADD (you found every squeek and rattle and fixed it) or have a wife/girlfriend that bitches a lot...these aren't for you. At least the initial break in is not for you. I hear it gets better with a little mileage on the car. It is a completely different noise. I kind of like it. You really hear the engine more. Now, bear in mind that I don't have the under-hood insulation, so mine may be more dramatic then yours. With that (lack of insulation), I can hear squeeking from the front I never heard before. Perhaps its the new mounts? Its a very light squeek and you can only hear it if you listen for it (I was purposely listening for a difference). With the radio on, I couldn't notice it.

Highway speeds - You can't even tell unless you go up a huge hill and you put a little load on the engine, but still its a very minute noise increase. Passing people...well...if you are like me you give her a little gas and just zip around people. You hear more in that situation.

Launches - WOW Between this and the Coilovers, there is ZERO wheel hop. None. launches are hard and fast, fast shifts are smooth as butter now (sometimes I used to get that engine lurching feeling between the shifts), and above 3k RPM's I can't notice a difference. This is probably because the higher frequency vibration in those RPM ranges has very little displacement so it is not transferred through the body.

Would I recommend it for anyone wanting performance enhancement and not worried about keeping their car super quiet? Yes. It will increase in cabin noise, but the benefits of the smooth shifts, lack of wheel hop, and for me...the cool added engine noise are worth it.


Web based Fittings guides - Not BSH

http://www.vf-accessories.com/pdfs/g5-enginesidemount.pdf

http://www.vf-accessories.com/pdfs/g5-transsidemount.pdf

Hope this helps decisoin making and fitting.


Dave

 :happy2:


« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 11:01:19 AM by stokeballoon »

Offline Top Cat

  • Top cat
  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 171
  • -Receive: 334
  • Posts: 8196
  • Almost Jacamo
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2009, 06:51:21 PM »
One hell of a job done, and write up there Quality Dave.  :congrats: :congrats: :congrats:

Offline Greeners

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 203
  • -Receive: 198
  • Posts: 8810
    • Email
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2009, 06:58:44 PM »
Excellent write up QD!  :drinking:

At least I know where to come as and when I purchase these items!  :wink: :happy2:

Offline Moschops

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 118
  • -Receive: 23
  • Posts: 1958
  • Edition 30 No 2275
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2009, 08:51:01 PM »
Nice write up QD, you can take me for a spin when I pop down... :happy2:

Which will be soon.... :smiley:
Cheers,

Wayne


Offline Tfsi_Mike

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 243
  • -Receive: 319
  • Posts: 10230
  • Go Large or Go Home
    • Tfsi Mikes Money Pit AKS / TTE / RTech St2+ Cupra
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5ufhno8f0a8casj0dclu02h1o5&/topic,32721.msg402587.html#msg402587
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 09:19:44 PM »

Outstanding write up!  :congrats:

Offline Hedge

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 481
  • -Receive: 304
  • Posts: 6617
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 09:58:04 PM »
Thanks QD. Not sure it is something I will do but always nice to hear an inderendent opinion.  :wink:

Offline john_o

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 124
  • -Receive: 97
  • Posts: 2848
  • oh the irony
    • My Car Blog
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 10:57:50 PM »
sweeeeeeet  :congrats:
very nice writeup  :happy2:
so tempted to pull the trigger on these ....... :drool:
Black ED30 3dr manual : No 1369
REVO Stg1 | WALK | DEFI | THS side +VWR Road Lower+PF | S3 calipers/340mmXDDiscs/DS2500 | B12 Sportline
BLOG | BUILD

Offline Tfsi_Mike

  • Global Moderator
  • Just look at my post count
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 243
  • -Receive: 319
  • Posts: 10230
  • Go Large or Go Home
    • Tfsi Mikes Money Pit AKS / TTE / RTech St2+ Cupra
  • My Ride: http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5ufhno8f0a8casj0dclu02h1o5&/topic,32721.msg402587.html#msg402587
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2009, 10:19:25 AM »

Just when I thought I'd decided on the VWR ones :'( 

The only thing is the mention to the 'noise' getting quieter when the mounts are 'bedded in'  The noise is one of the results I wantr from the mounts.... Hmmmm

Are they £180 only for a limited time?  If so what is the price they will increase to???

Offline QD MBE

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 15
  • -Receive: 102
  • Posts: 2497
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2009, 10:24:19 AM »
Mike,  

I think they will settle a bit, however I don't think they will settle to a point where you lose the noise you crave for.

Get the BSH ones, you will not be disappointed, when you see them or fit them!  They really have been thought out well, and the manufacture is fantastic.  (I am a time-served fitter/turner and boilermaker who took another apprenticeship 23 years ago into an Aerospace Engineer (structural specialist)), they are made very well.


:happy2:
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 10:26:27 AM by stokeballoon »

Offline RobH

  • Won't Shut up.
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 3
  • -Receive: 9
  • Posts: 581
  • Revo stg 2+
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2009, 10:59:31 AM »

Just when I thought I'd decided on the VWR ones :'( 

The only thing is the mention to the 'noise' getting quieter when the mounts are 'bedded in'  The noise is one of the results I wantr from the mounts.... Hmmmm

Are they £180 only for a limited time?  If so what is the price they will increase to???

Mike ill have the vwr lower sub mount (solid) fitted for the awesome rr day so you can hear what that sounds like if you want.

Offline RedRobin

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 376
  • -Receive: 433
  • Posts: 16612
  • BIALI Motorsport's Chief Horn Blower
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2009, 06:47:48 PM »
....

That's an outstanding write-up, Quality Dave - It's Quality! :notworthy:

Do you not hear any Grrrrrrrrrrr!! under hard throttle?

@ RobH:

I don't think you'll hear any extra sounds with only the lower mount fitted - That's definitely how it is with the VWR mounts. But it's the lower mount which kills the vast majority of the engine rocking and delivers the power more directly.

BSH don't appear to do a lower mount apart from the dogbone connector (not a mount) - Isn't that the mount which is responsible for most of the curing of engine rocking?

I'd be disappointed in the extreme if I fitted the BSH mounts and then found that the engine bay sounds settled down into being quieter or less of them. But I don't currently understand why the BSH mounts would make less noise than the VWR's except if the duro was softer on the BSH's.

I still don't know what soundz GTIjames hears with his VF mounts.

Regarding cost differences I reckon it's because on one hand, BSH manufacture their own in-house (correct me if I'm wrong) and have probably also cut their profits because they seem very keen to sell quantity and establish themselves. VWR on the other hand, have their mounts manufactured outside. How do VF prices compare?

I think that if I hadn't already bought VWR mounts I'd want to know what the duro differences were before deciding further. And in hindsight I'd want to drive a car fitted with each to hear what sounds are transmitted. I don't think that any of the BSH, VWR, and VF mounts are below the standard they need to be - I'm not a qualified engineer but that's how they all look to me.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 08:10:54 PM by RedRobin »


On facebook: https://www.facebook.com/robin.procter.50

Throbbin' Red Mk5 GTI DSG with too many mods to list - Have Fun but Safe Journeys!

Offline QD MBE

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 15
  • -Receive: 102
  • Posts: 2497
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2009, 10:58:06 PM »
Robin,

The GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR sound was the least of my goals.  i fitted them due to the OEM variants being gash, and being forced down the road by having the Vw racing lower mount fitted due to a problem not of my doing.

The Grrrrrrrrr sound is the one part I dislike. 

However the lack of transmission slop is the goal, and the BSH  mounts have delivered, and I hope they continue to settle.


Offline Janner_Sy

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 62
  • -Receive: 113
  • Posts: 5384
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2009, 11:10:33 PM »
Robin,

The GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR sound was the least of my goals.  i fitted them due to the OEM variants being gash, and being forced down the road by having the Vw racing lower mount fitted due to a problem not of my doing.

The Grrrrrrrrr sound is the one part I dislike. 

However the lack of transmission slop is the goal, and the BSH  mounts have delivered, and I hope they continue to settle.

must admit that should be everyones goal. i certainly dont want the car vibrating to death, but i do want a lack of slop in everything. looking forward to seeing if they do become less intrusive.

Offline RedRobin

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 376
  • -Receive: 433
  • Posts: 16612
  • BIALI Motorsport's Chief Horn Blower
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2009, 11:28:31 PM »
Robin,

The GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR sound was the least of my goals.  i fitted them due to the OEM variants being gash, and being forced down the road by having the Vw racing lower mount fitted due to a problem not of my doing.

The Grrrrrrrrr sound is the one part I dislike. 

However the lack of transmission slop is the goal, and the BSH mounts have delivered, and I hope they continue to settle.


....I know that, Dave  :happy2: - Your excellent review stated why you wanted them very clearly.

I am asking about the Grrrrrrrrrrrrr!! out of my own interest and also for the sake of others reading this thread who actually are interested in the sounds which engine mounts can transfer.

So, it appears you are hearing, not feeling, the grrrr with BSH mounts - Not what you wish to hear but perhaps what some others do want to hear.

Reducing/losing any transmission slop is of course a primary goal but some of us also love the sound extras as an incidental plus.


On facebook: https://www.facebook.com/robin.procter.50

Throbbin' Red Mk5 GTI DSG with too many mods to list - Have Fun but Safe Journeys!

Offline RedRobin

  • Just look at my post count
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 376
  • -Receive: 433
  • Posts: 16612
  • BIALI Motorsport's Chief Horn Blower
Re: BSH Engine Mounts Review
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2009, 11:40:21 PM »

must admit that should be everyones goal. i certainly dont want the car vibrating to death, but i do want a lack of slop in everything. looking forward to seeing if they do become less intrusive.


....Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the car actually vibrates any more or any less when engine mounts are fitted - Just more of the existing sounds and minor vibrations are transferred from the engine bay to the cabin - Something which car manufacturers do all they can to eliminate in their quest to give us a softer caccoon because it's what most people prefer.

In fact, as Dave has pointed out, the likelihood of such things like exhaust mounts breaking are lessened.

To my mind, it's not a fault whether an engine mount set either amplifies or reduces engine bay sounds, but it's simply different individual's preferences.

In time Dave will doubtless report his findings on the level of sound due to his BSH mounts. Meanwhile mine continue to give me much aural satisfaction.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 11:42:25 PM by RedRobin »


On facebook: https://www.facebook.com/robin.procter.50

Throbbin' Red Mk5 GTI DSG with too many mods to list - Have Fun but Safe Journeys!