Author Topic: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit  (Read 84405 times)

Offline john_o

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Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« on: November 12, 2008, 04:08:47 PM »
Whiteline Anti Lift Kit

Why
A fancy way to try and reduce understeer on the Golf MkV (GTI inc) that is both cheap(ish) but effective.

from whiteline themselves

"The MkV Golf is a great re-design and improvement from the earlier model, particularly due to the all new rear multi link suspension, although with the wider customer demographic vehicle handling dynamics and component quality has been compromised. This is good news for an enthusiast as there is a lot of potential for improvements on top of good underpinnings.

MkV Weaknesses

Poor roll control
Excessive front bump steer
Minimal alignment adjustments
High compliance bushing, front and rear
"

Sourcing
Bought online from Balance Motorsport
Anti-Lift Caster Kit - Golf 5 - KCA316 - £139.40

2 very large alloy lower arm fixings with included yellow rubber bushings.
Very well made

I had no other suspension modifications applied at this time. So any changes are directly attributable to this mod
I have now done > 2k miles on this mod
Unfortunately the hp did increase as well at this point  8)

Fitting
I didnt do it , I think this is best left to a professional. I let Awesome GTI do this.
Should only cost 30 - 60 minutes labour max
Should also have an alignment done after the work is completed

Plus Points
mid priced modification (although adding in suspension recheck and labour its not cheap)
effective at reducing understeer considerably (especially in the wet)
adds significant stability levels
steering feel unchanged (either in straight ahead or turning conditions)
reduction in torque steer and wheelspin (even after a significant increase in the bhp levels)
ESP is much happier and progressive (less on/off snatchy) , I  can now make good progress with some throttle control and ESP ON
can be returned to stock if required
looks fab  :grin:

Minus Points
You may not wish to have components of your new car changed!
other than that there are no downsides to this kit
[pending : longer term mileage to check tyre wear]
[update March 2009 : 8k miles with kit fitted and tyres have worn evenly  :happy2: ]


Other Info
see ** GolfMkV specific pdf **
see ** general pdf on WALK theory **
see ** tonys review on ukmkivs **
see ** review on golfmkv.com **

added 13/01/2009 : luca found a great vid :


Other mods to  consider
new suspension / coilovers
front and rear anti rollbars
good quality front tyres
check your tyre pressures!
LSD

Morego extended lower arms - these are available too but the reviews I have seen point to increased tyre wear. I suggest you stay away from this mod , unless you are a track only user

Summary
Prior to this modification I had 2 front tyres replaced (from Michelin Pilot Exaltos to PS2 new version).
This made a significant difference (just the tyres) to my understeer I had always complained about (especially in the wet).

Then I gained the same % improvement again by fitting the WALKit!
Its always easy to perceive a gain just because you have bought/added an item , but objectively this kit works.

The kit just works , silently but effectively with > 300 hp going through the front wheels.
You may wish to perform this as a combined upgrade with coil-overs / roll bars but for me this is as far as I want to go.

Top product which I thoroughly recommend  :happy2:

[update 8th July 09 : have added the >> Michelin PS2 tyre review] to the forum. The tyres completed 13,000 miles with the WALK kit fitted and have worn EVENLY across the tread.
The WALKit and aligment by Awesome + good tyre pressures = proper wear pattern
]

[update 13th Aug 09 : I have had the WALK kit and associated suspension checked while getting other work done on the car and there are no issues with it.  :happy2:]


« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 07:49:56 AM by john_o »
Black ED30 3dr manual : No 1369
REVO Stg1 | WALK | DEFI | THS side +VWR Road Lower+PF | S3 calipers/340mmXDDiscs/DS2500 | B12 Sportline
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Offline Top Cat

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 06:54:02 PM »
Thank you very much for taking the time to do this excellent write up. I also have this mod and agree with all of the above, For me though the steering feels a bit heavier, But only adds to the feel giving me more confidence.  :drinking:

Offline gazbutS3

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 11:29:15 PM »
nice 1 John, good write up and glad your pleased

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 06:13:31 PM »
^^^^

Great, concise, and to-the-point review :happy2:

I can't wait to have mine fitted when the KW coilovers are ready.


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Offline SteveP

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 10:34:44 PM »
Great work on this and the dogbone write-up John_o, we really appreciate your input  :happy2:

Offline Dario

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 04:04:48 AM »
good write up  :happy2:
REVO ST2+ Edition30 -sold

soon 2015 Golf R :)

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 11:33:35 AM »
....

IMPORTANT:

If you install this AntiLift kit it's advisable to upgrade the bushes on the other side of the wishbone. This is because the stock bushes are softer than the ones integrated into the Whiteline kit and loading will transfer to the 'weaker' oem bush and could eventually cause failure.



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Offline Top Cat

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 12:47:18 PM »
....

IMPORTANT:

If you install this AntiLift kit it's advisable to upgrade the bushes on the other side of the wishbone. This is because the stock bushes are softer than the ones integrated into the Whiteline kit and loading will transfer to the 'weaker' oem bush and could eventually cause failure.



Is it not better to wait and see if there is any evidence of this RR as no one has reported it so far and they have been on Mk 4's for some time obviously it is worth monitoring but, TT mentioned this would start compromising the feel of the car if i remember rightly.  :smiley:

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2008, 02:26:23 PM »
....

IMPORTANT:

If you install this AntiLift kit it's advisable to upgrade the bushes on the other side of the wishbone. This is because the stock bushes are softer than the ones integrated into the Whiteline kit and loading will transfer to the 'weaker' oem bush and could eventually cause failure.



Is it not better to wait and see if there is any evidence of this RR as no one has reported it so far and they have been on Mk 4's for some time obviously it is worth monitoring but, TT mentioned this would start compromising the feel of the car if i remember rightly.  :smiley:

....Yes, and No - It's how I've been advised by VW Racing's suspension guy and so, as you say, definitely worth mentioning.

If you've already got the WALK's fitted then it's doubtless not worth the effort of changing and more a case of wait and see, and it may never be an issue - Indeed I hope not!

VWR's perspective, and hence advice, comes from hardcore track experience and their knowledge of what components are subjected to. They regularly strip their GTI's and send parts away for specialist servicing or replacement. This gives them a knowledge of how various components endure their usage.

Of course track and road use are different, but there is a significant overlap. For track it's pedal-to-the-metal, lap after lap, hard driving with a shorter lifespan before replacement. For example, KW racing shocks are only galvanised because they are more regularly replaced, whereas KW's road products are stainless steel. For road it's mile after mile, year after year, but with occasional spirited driving and the suspension still gets some serious workouts (unless you drive like a granny and don't really need a GTI). The car doesn't differentiate whether she's driven on road or track but simply responds to how she's driven and hence the suspension workout she has to endure.

Put it this way, if VWR/RLL start offering WALK's as part of their suspension package for 'fast road use', they'll include the additional bushes - Just as Milltek now include the Torque Arm Insert with their downpipes. I can't speak on behalf of VWR but my knowledge of them strongly suggests that they wouldn't offer WALK's without the extra bushes - It's an attitude based on their own particular experiences and one I'm very inclined to take notice of.

You played the TT-card!! :grin: [I hope his current absence isn't due to illness - God Speed! as they say]



But I'm The Dealer, so my Blackjack wins! :evilgrin:

Like several others on this forum, I have driven a number of highly modified GTI's and I humbly suggest that, in my opinion, you would be very hard pressed to feel the difference of just the aftermarket wishbone bushes. I've recently driven my second GTI which has both aftermarket engine mounts and poly bushes throughout and didn't find the ride at all uncomfortable. Imo it wouldn't even equate to the difference in ride feel between Monza 17's and 18's.
OK, your wife might not like the ride, but on the other hand she might absolutely love it!! :evilgrin:

I have enormous respect for TT's opinions and knowledge and I will always listen to him, but on this occasion my opinion differs at this time.

:happy2:

« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 02:31:17 PM by RedRobin »


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Offline Top Cat

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2008, 02:36:20 PM »
Then i shall just repeat what his opinion on the subject was and i wont say a word more.  :P

Quote from: Top Cat on October 31, 2008, 02:16:16 pm
While i have you what do you think about the suggestion of uprating the bushes on the front wishbone as well i think VW racing mentioned it may also be a good idea to RedRobin but they have not looked into it as yet for him. so whats your thought's.

TT's quote

Uprated poly bushes on the leading edge of the lower wishbones (or indeed on any suspension component) are a bit of a grey area.  Yes, they will marginally improve the feel, and generall handling.  However, they are no where near as compliant as the standard rubber bushes.  Poly suspension bushes, which include the WALK, will give more noise through the car, and will create much more harsh "feelings" inside the car.  If you have a wife or kids, or generally enjoy the refinement of the car, I would just stick with the WALK, and leave the front bushes standard.

Just remember that VW Racing are race car or motorsport specialists.  You need someone who knows what works best on the road.

Oh and by the way he is fine last i heard he emailed me last week and was just having a break from hitting you on the head with a squeeky toy hammer.  :laugh:

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2008, 02:58:08 PM »
Then i shall just repeat what his opinion on the subject was and i wont say a word more.  :P

Quote from: Top Cat on October 31, 2008, 02:16:16 pm
While i have you what do you think about the suggestion of uprating the bushes on the front wishbone as well i think VW racing mentioned it may also be a good idea to RedRobin but they have not looked into it as yet for him. so whats your thought's.

TT's quote

Uprated poly bushes on the leading edge of the lower wishbones (or indeed on any suspension component) are a bit of a grey area.  Yes, they will marginally improve the feel, and generall handling.  However, they are no where near as compliant as the standard rubber bushes.  Poly suspension bushes, which include the WALK, will give more noise through the car, and will create much more harsh "feelings" inside the car.  If you have a wife or kids, or generally enjoy the refinement of the car, I would just stick with the WALK, and leave the front bushes standard.

Just remember that VW Racing are race car or motorsport specialists.  You need someone who knows what works best on the road.

....And I will refer to what I have already written and add that the bottom line is what each individual wants from their GTI/Ed30. Having driven two GTI's with polybushes throughout I personally didn't find it to be the problem I expected. But ETTO.

Actually, thinking about this a bit more, if you are fitting mods such as WALK's and coilovers etc, you are already entering the twilight world of the overlap between road and track. So I don't agree with what TT has said about VWR's 'limited' knowledge of fast road needs. Furthermore you have already 'compromised' the "feelings" inside the car. It's the difference in compliance between the WALK's and stock bushes which I am pointing out may be wise to address.

Oh and by the way he is fine last i heard he emailed me last week and was just having a break from hitting you on the head with a squeeky toy hammer.  :laugh:

.... :laugh: - Very glad to hear he's well! I wondered why I was no longer suffering from headaches :evilgrin:

[RR goes off to build a TT-proof carbonfibre crashhat!]
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 03:54:06 PM by RedRobin »


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Offline tony_danza

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2008, 11:04:30 AM »
Hi,

I'll chip in a little and say I tend to agree with RR/VWR, as I can see the logic in what they're saying.

The standard bush is at least a solid one, rather than voided and is a pretty hard compound for OEM kit, so it is better than it could be. I certainly think it is up to the task, but you've got to be mindful that it will wear a bit quicker. I'd be interested to hear what Whiteline suggest on the matter, as it must have been a consideration and wouldn't be hard for them to add it into the kit?? I'll ask them.

I guess I'll just wait and see what happens with it, it might last 12 months, it might last 3 years? but I will have it checked regularly.. 3 solid days at the 'ring last month and all day at Donnington yesterday shows no issues so far and I guess mine will be the acid test car as it'll get more sustained hard action than most.

I have no reservations about polying the front end, I've had my previous cars done and never noticed a negative difference - although I've never run a super-hard, decked car.. maybe it'd be more apparent here? I'm going to be upgrading the Eibachs for Bilstein B16s come spring so will have them swapped out at the same time for poly anyway.
Sideways yo!

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2008, 12:47:39 PM »
^^^^
Thanks for your very useful input, tony_d. :happy2:

Yes, we're not saying that the stock bush isn't up to it but only that it becomes a potentially weaker spot when the WALK's are fitted, and that ideally they are better changed.

However, I do respect TT's point about comfort even though I don't think just replacing these bushes will make a noticeable difference.

We should bear in mind that VWR and those in the racing world will be much more inclined to go for the 'ideal', but because of the way I am and my intentions to keep my GTI, I go for the same ideal.

The purpose of my posting such info/advice is to help rather than to ring alarm bells.

:happy2:
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 02:16:00 PM by RedRobin »


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Offline tony_danza

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2008, 01:23:02 PM »
Yeah, T_T's point is a fair one. Poly in some applications can be terrible, I'll give you rear beam bushes or a dogbone on a MKIV for starters!

Rubber tends to be used in wishbones not so much for the compliance/comfort, but the ability it has to reduce noise. Polys (depending on how hard) can slightly increase tyre roar in the cabin. However, the benefits of their control far outweigh this problem as they allow the suspension to work on its correct axis without being distorted by lateral forces.

Danza's conclusion:.. if it'd have been a voided bush, it would have been swapped out, no questions.
On a road goer, I can't see it making a significant difference to the lifespan of the bush although the possibility is there and is to be considered.
For tracking, in hindsight I'd have poly'd it but I'm not going out of my way to change it now, I'm confident in its ability, as must Whiteline be too.  They've been making these for years now on scoobies etc. and it would have cost them pennies to chuck in a front bush - they obviously deem it good enough, but there's absolutely no harm in a bit of preventative action like VWR have suggested in the "belt and braces" approach.

Don't forget, tracking is very, very hard on a car - I'd ruin a set of topmounts every say 3-4 events, but even fast road would see them go for 30k. VWR have evaluated it based on their needs, so I can see exactly why they'd want it uprated.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2008, 01:27:23 PM by tony_danza »
Sideways yo!

Offline Top Cat

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Re: Whiteline Anti Lift Kit
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2008, 02:33:47 PM »
Its all good info. This thread is excellent, lets hope we get a few more like this.  :drinking: