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Brexit
Bard:
Absolutely - I voted in but now the referendum has given us an answer we need to move forward and make it work. As others in the thread have said I'm massively dismayed at the lies and half truths that having been presented as facts have unravelled extremely quickly.
I'm even more dismayed at the lineup for our next PM - my other half is a teacher and ran a large 6th form, as such I've heard many different views on the education system in this country what does/doesn't work about the current system and ideas for the future (from people that deal with it on a daily basis) I've yet to hear a single professional in the education sector actually agree with Gove's implementations or views. The possibility of him as PM scares me and I don't believe for one second that if he ran a contest for PM by democracy he would win (ok it's within the rules to change personnelle but I think the mandate would be demonstrably different to Cameron/Osborne's) , becoming PM by the backdoor in the same way as Gordon Brown is his only way to that office (IMO). Having said that May seems to want to abandon the goal of running a budget surplus, a horrific step away from the policies in place. All of that heartache and pain for those in need for nothing now? (as a point I believe trying to get back to a surplus is a good thing, difficult decisions being taken. And I'm willing to say that I've not really been affected by any of those changes so it's easier to have that viewpoint).
The EU was/is far from perfect and as the graphic showing net contributors/beneficiaries shows there's clearly a discrepancy between what we put in and got out, but less than Germany for example. I think it's quite a progressive thing to be helping those other countries develop. My concern is the larger issues at stake that affect the world, regardless of lines on a map. These include global warming the EU is able to implement and push measures that help us move toward a more sustainable world. China's GDP/Economic growth over the last decade has exploded and since slowed but at what cost to the environment in the long term? It's slowdown to me points toward that the growth wasn't sustainable and so could have happened with less cost to the planet. An organisation like the EU can help bring these things into focus. It's a similar argument as we have with the banks and bonuses - focus on short term gain over long term stability, in the long run that oversight and governance helps, not only with what happens but record keeping and analysis of what is going on so we can learn from the past.
I'm disappointed that the campaigns focused almost exclusively on Economics and Migration. Don't get me wrong, they are 2 huge issues facing this country (and many others). My largest worry though is cultural. We are to move away from the EU - our neighbours and cultural heavyweights in Europe will still be on our doorstep as we probably move to a closer purely capitalist society like the United States. Personally I like being European, having lived in Europe for several years in my early 20's I would rather we were closer culturally to these countries and further from the US. Working for a global US company I can see the benefits of the capitalist pursuit of the almighty dollar but at the macro level I'm not convinced it's the best thing for the population. The out campaign's slogans around the 350M for the NHS is all well and good, but that statement comes from those inside the government that are to the right wing of the tory party, it can easily be argued that those same people are working to privatise our healthcare and education already, clearly in conflict with their promises on the campaign trail. This conflict takes us towards a US model where healthcare is based on your ability to pay, your luck in finding work with a healthcare insurance plan or being treated in emergency and being stuck with costs you cannot bear.
Ooops rather long post there! I'll stop blabbering!
Juliand:
--- Quote from: Bard on July 01, 2016, 11:28:51 am ---Absolutely - I voted in but now the referendum has given us an answer we need to move forward and make it work. As others in the thread have said I'm massively dismayed at the lies and half truths that having been presented as facts have unravelled extremely quickly.
I'm even more dismayed at the lineup for our next PM - my other half is a teacher and ran a large 6th form, as such I've heard many different views on the education system in this country what does/doesn't work about the current system and ideas for the future (from people that deal with it on a daily basis) I've yet to hear a single professional in the education sector actually agree with Gove's implementations or views. The possibility of him as PM scares me and I don't believe for one second that if he ran a contest for PM by democracy he would win (ok it's within the rules to change personnelle but I think the mandate would be demonstrably different to Cameron/Osborne's) , becoming PM by the backdoor in the same way as Gordon Brown is his only way to that office (IMO). Having said that May seems to want to abandon the goal of running a budget surplus, a horrific step away from the policies in place. All of that heartache and pain for those in need for nothing now? (as a point I believe trying to get back to a surplus is a good thing, difficult decisions being taken. And I'm willing to say that I've not really been affected by any of those changes so it's easier to have that viewpoint).
The EU was/is far from perfect and as the graphic showing net contributors/beneficiaries shows there's clearly a discrepancy between what we put in and got out, but less than Germany for example. I think it's quite a progressive thing to be helping those other countries develop. My concern is the larger issues at stake that affect the world, regardless of lines on a map. These include global warming the EU is able to implement and push measures that help us move toward a more sustainable world. China's GDP/Economic growth over the last decade has exploded and since slowed but at what cost to the environment in the long term? It's slowdown to me points toward that the growth wasn't sustainable and so could have happened with less cost to the planet. An organisation like the EU can help bring these things into focus. It's a similar argument as we have with the banks and bonuses - focus on short term gain over long term stability, in the long run that oversight and governance helps, not only with what happens but record keeping and analysis of what is going on so we can learn from the past.
I'm disappointed that the campaigns focused almost exclusively on Economics and Migration. Don't get me wrong, they are 2 huge issues facing this country (and many others). My largest worry though is cultural. We are to move away from the EU - our neighbours and cultural heavyweights in Europe will still be on our doorstep as we probably move to a closer purely capitalist society like the United States. Personally I like being European, having lived in Europe for several years in my early 20's I would rather we were closer culturally to these countries and further from the US. Working for a global US company I can see the benefits of the capitalist pursuit of the almighty dollar but at the macro level I'm not convinced it's the best thing for the population. The out campaign's slogans around the 350M for the NHS is all well and good, but that statement comes from those inside the government that are to the right wing of the tory party, it can easily be argued that those same people are working to privatise our healthcare and education already, clearly in conflict with their promises on the campaign trail. This conflict takes us towards a US model where healthcare is based on your ability to pay, your luck in finding work with a healthcare insurance plan or being treated in emergency and being stuck with costs you cannot bear.
Ooops rather long post there! I'll stop blabbering!
--- End quote ---
Good post....The principles of the EU are generally soundly based - there might be some niggling issues, of course, but to 'throw the baby out with the bathwater' is a very expensive sledge hammer to crack a small peanut......IMO.
Where are all of the civil servants etc with the necessary skills and expertise to work through these complicated and lengthy trade deals???
The UK is ill-equipped to go it alone. A big worry...
Scottymon:
The EU is getting more and more like the US; they control our Laws, control our freedom of trade, dictate who can come into our country, stifle our growth... and this is only going to get worse.
Regarding Health Care, have you read about TTIP? That's the US and EU (behind closed doors) trying to get Privatization of our services including the NHS.
Make no mistake about it, the democratic deficit in the EU is rife.
Bard:
Fair point on TTIP Scotty - that is certainly a worry with regards privatisation. I'm not wholly clued up on TTIP I admit. Aren't they also trying to reduce barriers for big business on things like pharm, food safety and banking regulations? All things I would want someone or a body (like the EU) to try and represent the consumer/publics interest. You're right to point out that it's secret negotiations between the EU and US and that is certainly scary as these are exactly the kind of 'bureaucratic red tape' measures (that the leave campaign said made British Businesses lives harder) that were put in place by the EU to improve standards and safeguards (you could argue). To me this probably points more toward the fact that the US has far too much say in the rest of the world and that the EU's position has probably weakened since inception... coming full circle almost to say that the EU isn't good enough at what is should be doing, which could well be a logical argument for leaving (if we'd voiced concerns, given 'red lines' and actually managed our membership), though as I write I'm acutely aware that the input level from societies into who governs at the EU level is a grave concern and potential reason for this, again good reasons to question the membership.
At this rate the conversation is going to go toward the level of corruption around the world and it's leaders, and to be more precise the level of detected corruption vs corruption that can be inferred from lobbying (as above) vs direct pay offs and the impact that has on the citizens of the world's nations. The TTIP just shows that holding public office should be purely in the public's interest. Though obviously you could then get into the circular argument that allowing business greater access and growth because of this helps GDP and actually helps the average citizen so therefore by acting in a way that harms consumer rights and protections is actually in their interest...
Juliand:
--- Quote from: dansmith180 on July 01, 2016, 12:35:34 am ---
--- Quote from: Juliand on June 30, 2016, 10:43:53 pm ---
--- Quote from: dansmith180 on June 30, 2016, 09:23:39 am ---
I'm all for helping out fellow man and colour/ race/ religion doesn't really matter to me but you can't bankrupt yourself trying to save everyone when they don't always seem to be helping themselves.
Also if the people in control of the EU were focused on that rather than trying to tell everyone what they should do the world would be a better place.
--- End quote ---
At what point was our contribution to the EU bankrupting the UK?
Compare the UK's financial contribution to the EU in 2015 at £8.5 Billion net (after what we get back) against the loss to UK companies following the 'out' decision of over £120 Billion, and the biggest drop in Sterling in over 30 years? Which was the biggest impact on the UK's economy? Clue: not the UK's payment to the EU.
What real examples do you have of the EU telling everyone what to do??? :doh:
--- End quote ---
I didnt say the EU was bankrupting us, I said the idea of giving our money away to every country in need so we could all be equal would probably bankrupt us.
Real example? How about the fact that it took 8 YEARS to deport that maniac Abu Hamza, and he cost us £25million while he was here.
We had to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait and wait until eventually the judges in Strasbourg let us deport someone from our own country. And they were reluctant to do it.
--- End quote ---
This case fell under the provisions of the European Convention on Human Rights - Not the EU - the two are very different, which just shows how the EU can be blamed for anything with the word 'European' in it.
In or out of the EU, the UK remains a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights....
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