Brake Confusion!

[pudding]

Yeah but big brakes.... they are big 

They are 

Trouble is, the bigger the disc, the more flywheel effect it has at the end of your driveshaft, which isn't pleasant on FWD cars.  18" wheels are bad enough for that as it is!

[rich83]

Kind of true, unless you are using lightweight 2 piece discs. The steering on my car noticeably got lighter going from solid 340mm to 2 piece 362mm.

[r5gtt]

You are a shining example of the opposite of "What do I need to make these 56 pot McLaren P1 calipers fit my Ed30?" type stuff that seems to be the culture these days 

I have yet to find a requirement to move away from the standard brakes.  I don't do track days, because it's a road car.....I'll buy a Caterham when I do track days   

I think most folk who feel the standard brakes are inadequate for road use....

...are driving way too fast on public roads and / or leaving the braking way too late.
...have f'cked rear calipers.
...have a vacuum pump seal leak.
...have crap pads.
...have worn dampers.
...etc.

Seriously, I have braked from some pretty silly speeds I'm not proud of and the standard brakes were absolutely fine.   Bigger brakes improve the initial bite because of the torque leverage and bigger pad area, but you cannot deploy more stopping force to the tarmac than the tyres are capable of.  Standard brakes can lock the tyres just as easily as massive brakes.  The only difference is pedal effort.  I'd rather save my money and push the pedal harder 

@r5gtt exactly what I said earlier!!

I hear that but oem are still sh*t in comparison to BBK's or else why we fitting them. A lot of people use oem calipers and a good set of pads but I prefer a bigger set of brakes because the wheels won't swollow the calipers and discs so looks much better and greater stopping force for me remembering we're upping the torque so will need more braking force for that power band. 

[Paradox1]

You are a shining example of the opposite of "What do I need to make these 56 pot McLaren P1 calipers fit my Ed30?" type stuff that seems to be the culture these days 

I have yet to find a requirement to move away from the standard brakes.  I don't do track days, because it's a road car.....I'll buy a Caterham when I do track days   

I think most folk who feel the standard brakes are inadequate for road use....

...are driving way too fast on public roads and / or leaving the braking way too late.
...have f'cked rear calipers.
...have a vacuum pump seal leak.
...have crap pads.
...have worn dampers.
...etc.

Seriously, I have braked from some pretty silly speeds I'm not proud of and the standard brakes were absolutely fine.   Bigger brakes improve the initial bite because of the torque leverage and bigger pad area, but you cannot deploy more stopping force to the tarmac than the tyres are capable of.  Standard brakes can lock the tyres just as easily as massive brakes.  The only difference is pedal effort.  I'd rather save my money and push the pedal harder 

@r5gtt exactly what I said earlier!!

I hear that but oem are still sh*t in comparison to BBK's or else we fitting them. A lot of people use oem. Takes and a good set of pads but I prefer a bigger set of brakes because the wheels swollow the discs and pads so looks and better stopping force for me remembering we're upping the torque so will need more braking force for that power band.

OEM arent sh1t,

Have you overheated your brakes yet? No becuase there not sh*t. you pretty much just said you want a BBK for the looks.... #Scene queen!

[Pesky jones]

 

[Shoduchi]

You are a shining example of the opposite of "What do I need to make these 56 pot McLaren P1 calipers fit my Ed30?" type stuff that seems to be the culture these days 

I have yet to find a requirement to move away from the standard brakes.  I don't do track days, because it's a road car.....I'll buy a Caterham when I do track days   

I think most folk who feel the standard brakes are inadequate for road use....

...are driving way too fast on public roads and / or leaving the braking way too late.
...have f'cked rear calipers.
...have a vacuum pump seal leak.
...have crap pads.
...have worn dampers.
...etc.

Seriously, I have braked from some pretty silly speeds I'm not proud of and the standard brakes were absolutely fine.   Bigger brakes improve the initial bite because of the torque leverage and bigger pad area, but you cannot deploy more stopping force to the tarmac than the tyres are capable of.  Standard brakes can lock the tyres just as easily as massive brakes.  The only difference is pedal effort.  I'd rather save my money and push the pedal harder 

At high enough speeds the OEM brakes can't lock the tyres, even if you stomp the brakes as hard as you can. But for road use only the R32 and 7R brakes are plenty enough. If you want a lighter setup the NQSBBK should be the best option.

Just the track use requires a bigger and better setup.

[Dan_FR]

I've managed to overheat the standard 312s (standard disc and pads) on the road, but I am a heavy on the brakes. They bite and stop well, but fade seriously quickly after a few hard stops. S3/R32/Cupra 345mm setup I've yet to experience significant fade although spirited driving is on hold at present until other issues are resolved.

At the end of the day its a standard setup on the Leon Cupra at a 'mere' 240hp so its hardly overkill for a stage 2 Ed30 with 100hp+ on top

[Shoduchi]

I'm in the process of getting good track use only pads. Chose the Carbotech XP20. I'm sure it will come the time when I'll want to get 2 piece disc to decrease the weight on my front axle.

[AJP]

I found the standard brakes were really quite easy to cook. Fade was never far away. Actual stopping power was quite good, but only for a few big corners.

The mk7 PP/Clubsport setup I've got now deals with heat much more competently. Stopping power is moderately improved, but that wasn't the main factor in upgrading. It was to improve the resistance to fade. So that's the box ticked.

They're adequate. No more, no less.

There's nothing wrong with bigger 4/6/8 pot kits, as long as the piston area is within tolerance of the master cylinder. Dedicated track cars might find the limits of the mk7 setup a little too quickly. And a good kit with two piece discs does look the b*llocks, you can't deny it.

EDIT: Just realised I've pretty much just rewritten what Dan said! Seems a common theme, anyway: It's not the braking force, it's the fade.

[rich83]

You are a shining example of the opposite of "What do I need to make these 56 pot McLaren P1 calipers fit my Ed30?" type stuff that seems to be the culture these days 

I have yet to find a requirement to move away from the standard brakes.  I don't do track days, because it's a road car.....I'll buy a Caterham when I do track days   

I think most folk who feel the standard brakes are inadequate for road use....

...are driving way too fast on public roads and / or leaving the braking way too late.
...have f'cked rear calipers.
...have a vacuum pump seal leak.
...have crap pads.
...have worn dampers.
...etc.

Seriously, I have braked from some pretty silly speeds I'm not proud of and the standard brakes were absolutely fine.   Bigger brakes improve the initial bite because of the torque leverage and bigger pad area, but you cannot deploy more stopping force to the tarmac than the tyres are capable of.  Standard brakes can lock the tyres just as easily as massive brakes.  The only difference is pedal effort.  I'd rather save my money and push the pedal harder 

At high enough speeds the OEM brakes can't lock the tyres, even if you stomp the brakes as hard as you can. But for road use only the R32 and 7R brakes are plenty enough. If you want a lighter setup the NQSBBK should be the best option.

Just the track use requires a bigger and better setup.

Exactly. You cannot deny that big brakes offer better braking and shorter shopping distances.

If you are locking your wheels us with 312mm discs then you need better tyres.

[r5gtt]

You are a shining example of the opposite of "What do I need to make these 56 pot McLaren P1 calipers fit my Ed30?" type stuff that seems to be the culture these days 

I have yet to find a requirement to move away from the standard brakes.  I don't do track days, because it's a road car.....I'll buy a Caterham when I do track days   

I think most folk who feel the standard brakes are inadequate for road use....

...are driving way too fast on public roads and / or leaving the braking way too late.
...have f'cked rear calipers.
...have a vacuum pump seal leak.
...have crap pads.
...have worn dampers.
...etc.

Seriously, I have braked from some pretty silly speeds I'm not proud of and the standard brakes were absolutely fine.   Bigger brakes improve the initial bite because of the torque leverage and bigger pad area, but you cannot deploy more stopping force to the tarmac than the tyres are capable of.  Standard brakes can lock the tyres just as easily as massive brakes.  The only difference is pedal effort.  I'd rather save my money and push the pedal harder 

@r5gtt exactly what I said earlier!!

I hear that but oem are still sh*t in comparison to BBK's or else why we fitting them. A lot of people use oem calipers and a good set of pads but I prefer a bigger set of brakes because the wheels won't swollow the calipers and discs so looks much better and greater stopping force for me remembering we're upping the torque so will need more braking force for that power band.

OEM arent sh1t,

Have you overheated your brakes yet? No becuase there not sh*t. you pretty much just said you want a BBK for the looks.... #Scene queen!

no not over cooked but under braking conditions they're shi** mr I've got bigger brakes than you but I've still not got the discs bolts spigots 
Talk to me when you've got everything   

[trackep]

Sorry to go off topic a bit. what is the facebook page where i might find a brake setup for sale? Cheers Adam

[Dan_FR]

TFSI Tuning and TFSI Parts for sale/wanted

are probably your best bet

[pudding]

You are a shining example of the opposite of "What do I need to make these 56 pot McLaren P1 calipers fit my Ed30?" type stuff that seems to be the culture these days 

I have yet to find a requirement to move away from the standard brakes.  I don't do track days, because it's a road car.....I'll buy a Caterham when I do track days   

I think most folk who feel the standard brakes are inadequate for road use....

...are driving way too fast on public roads and / or leaving the braking way too late.
...have f'cked rear calipers.
...have a vacuum pump seal leak.
...have crap pads.
...have worn dampers.
...etc.

Seriously, I have braked from some pretty silly speeds I'm not proud of and the standard brakes were absolutely fine.   Bigger brakes improve the initial bite because of the torque leverage and bigger pad area, but you cannot deploy more stopping force to the tarmac than the tyres are capable of.  Standard brakes can lock the tyres just as easily as massive brakes.  The only difference is pedal effort.  I'd rather save my money and push the pedal harder 

At high enough speeds the OEM brakes can't lock the tyres, even if you stomp the brakes as hard as you can. But for road use only the R32 and 7R brakes are plenty enough. If you want a lighter setup the NQSBBK should be the best option.

Just the track use requires a bigger and better setup.

Exactly. You cannot deny that big brakes offer better braking and shorter shopping distances.

If you are locking your wheels us with 312mm discs then you need better tyres.

Yep, very true.  The key words there being "high enough road speeds", where the stock brakes can't shift enough heat.  I'm not disputing bigger brakes aren't needed on track days and I agree they look cool and can work brilliantly if sized correctly, but in the context of road driving - if people are over cooking standard brakes, I think it's more a question of driving style than a braking deficiency and it's only a matter of time before they come a cropper.  If people push the limit with standard brakes, they will push even harder with uprated brakes, and the consequences will be even worse.  That's why insurers bump up the premium for bigger brakes.

There isn't much significantly better than the PS4 at the moment.  Doesn't matter how grippy the rubber is, 225 section is 225 section.  For example, you will never get 911 GT3RS stopping power from bolting 911 GT3RS brakes onto a Golf.   The 911's chassis was built to deploy that stopping power, the Golf's wasn't.  And that's the issue I have with bolting on random disc / caliper combinations from various makes of car because it can often give patchy results.

I've had AP Racing kits in the past and I do like silly powerful brakes, but I wouldn't spend that kind of money again on a road car because I don't think the cost / benefit ratio stacks up on the road, unless you get a hard on from braking as late as possible of course.  Something cheaper like the MK7/340mm setup makes better sense for a road car.

[Shoduchi]

Well, we arrived at a consensus.