Author Topic: Down on power....  (Read 29175 times)

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2008, 08:00:17 PM »
KO4 KO4 KO4  :mad: :jumpmove: That would be my decision but then again I can never get enough POWER!  :jumping: The second hand KO3 sounds like a viable option and a relatively inexpensive one at the same time. As you say you dont want 300 neddies going through your front wheels so this has gotta be the route to go down!  :happy2:

....Too many neddies for my taste and also £4,000!

But importantly, as TT has posted:
"High turbo boost + big turbo + high compression ratio = much shorter engine life" -

Which translates to:
"Higher boost level from the remap + K04 bigger turbo + high compression ratio (GTI, not Ed30) = much shorter engine life" - Or so it seems to me.


« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 03:31:11 PM by RedRobin »


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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2008, 08:24:50 PM »
Robin, have you ever been on any other rollers?  Maybe JKM have had theirs recalibrated since your first run way back when.  I am aware that DD rollers are supposed to be the most tightly regulated, by the manufacturer - and if JKMs were being "over generous" when initially installed - a subsequent recalibration might have down-corrected their readings.  I simply mention this because you seem to be saying that the stage 2 "seems better" - so your butt-dyno is telling you the stage 2 is better, but the RR is telling you the opposite.

....I went on some Dyno-Dynamic rollers at Weston Performance today but in Stock map (202.3 bhp) and with a boost graph which showed spike at 1.2 bar and bad drop off from 2,400 revs. Best to forget my butt-dyno!

Engine oil - what brand, type and spec oil do you use?  And what is your oil consumption like?  Do you religiously keep it topped up to the max by adding small amounts frequently, or do you let the oil get fairly low and then add quite a lot?

....Both!! Usually frequent top-ups but there have been a couple of low fills. VW approved Mobil from my dealer. Consumption was heavy for first few thousand miles but now not so often. I change my oil every 10,000 miles.

Onto the specifics of oil in the turbo discharge pipe.  Firstly, you stated "Inlet seals removed and cleaned and all ok in that area now" - but do you mean the seals on the pipework, the seals on the turbine shaft, or do you mean the valve stem oil seals for the "poppet valves" in the cylinder head?

....Seals on the pipework.

Regarding actually finding oil in the turbo discharge pipe, I think this is fairly common.  I found oil in mine, and inside the standard intercooler - but it wasnt much.  Maybe one or two tablespoons, which is fairly reasonable.  However, I wonder if the stock GTI intercooler has something to do with this?  I personally reckon the stock i/c is slightly restrictive, which can cause a slight backpressure on the inlet side of the turbo.  Since upgrading mine to the S3 cooler and twintercooler, I do notice a much more rapid rise in turbo boost - which prooves that the airflow through the inlet tract is much freer and less restrictive.  Maybe this is also having an effect on the way that the oil vapours from the crankcase ventilation system are not getting to the combustion chambers quick enough.  Think of having a hot shower in a closed bathroom - the shower will steam away, but if you have a mega powerful extractor fan immediately above the shower head, it will suck out all the steam.  However, if you have a clogged, weedy fan, the steam wont get sucked out, but will condense on your bathroom mirror, and then dribble off the bottom edge.

....Sounds like very good justification for a S3 intercooler! My priorities are (1) This turbo issue (2) Suspension due to KoniFSD issue (3) Powdercoat Monzas.
 
Onto a couple of other issues.  Did JKM plug in a VAG-COM to check for fault codes?  And did they carefully monitor the N75 cycle?

....Yes and no fault codes seen. Dunno about N75 cycle - What is that?

Regarding the actual replacement of the turbo - only you can decide which is the best way.  However, I would personally never recommend any second hand turbo, no matter how well the previous owner claimed to have looked after it.  You only need to recall some of the threads on the other GTI fourm (revving engines whilst stationary, "blipping" throttles, correct turbo cool down - I even think that you mis-understood about the cool-down procedure), and it simply showed a fundamental lack of knowledge on how to car for an engine in general, let alone the specific requirements of a turbo.  If I were forced to only take a 2nd hand turbo, then I would send it to a specialist turbo re-builder for a complete overhall and warranty.

If your original turbo is knackered, I would personally seek a specialist recon, or go for the genuine new VW part.  Yes, I understand your POV that the official VW 2 year warranty will probably be void - but it is the "peace of mind" from getting an OEM supplied part - you can pretty much expect an OEM new turbo to last a long while, but how long will a slightly cheaper second hand one last.  The labour charges will be the same, but if the 2nd hand one doesn't last, then someone will be paying the labour charges all over again.

....As usual, you make a very good point. If the second-hand K03 costs £400 + £200?? for overhaul = £600 approx and a new VW one costs £650, which to go for? I don't know if it's true but I've heard that VW sell reconditioned turbos.

Thanks as always for your time and valuable input  :happy2:


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Offline WhiteGTI

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2008, 08:40:07 PM »
Now your making me nervous with my Stage 2 !!!!

....I'm very confident it isn't down to Revo Stage2. Boost is set at 7, which isn't at all excessive. Also there are plenty people running Revo's Stage2 on the 2.0T FSI with very similar mods to mine (you for example!).

The boost graph shows that it's spiking at 1.2 bar and then dropping off badly from 2,400 revs.

True, but I have only been running mine for just over two weeks, and have rarely pushed the car (due to the weather)! I think my boost has been set to 6, as Keith at JKM noticed that fuel pressure was dropping, resulting in fuel cuts when the boost was set to 7. Interesting that your car was set (and ok) at 7!

Do you know of any other regular GTI's with stage 2 software other than yourself and I? I have seen a lot of Skoda's on their forum that have Revo Stage 2 software, and they seem to be ok.

Hope you get your troubles sorted Robin.

Chris.
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2006 E46 BMW M3 - 343hp
2000 Lotus Elise Sport160 - 160hp

Offline vRStu

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2008, 08:46:44 PM »
By looking at the duty cycle of the N75 you can determine how hard your turbo is working to provide the requested pressure.

YOu can buy a turbo on an exchange basis from VW but I'm unsure of the pricing.  The part number will normally end with an X.
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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2008, 09:06:32 PM »
....

Thanks, Stu - Keith showed me a column of numbers which showed that requested boost levels were down from 'normal'. He later mentioned 200 millibars off.

I think that the £650 price Kate gave me is as an exchange with VW. Otherwise about £1,000 I think but am not certain.


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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2008, 09:36:08 AM »
hope you get it sorted Red! chin up mate!  :smiley:

Offline Greeners

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2008, 09:39:48 AM »
Good on you Robin for staying so chipper about it, most after bad news like that would of parked it up on the drive and sulked, but you arrived in Birmingham smiling!  :wink:

I for one was glad you did!  :P

Offline SteveP

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2008, 11:35:41 AM »
Good on you Robin for staying so chipper about it, most after bad news like that would of parked it up on the drive and sulked, but you arrived in Birmingham smiling!  :wink:

I for one was glad you did!  :P

Ditto  :happy2:

Hope you get it sorted soon matey.  :smiley:
 

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2008, 12:53:02 PM »
Good on you Robin for staying so chipper about it, most after bad news like that would of parked it up on the drive and sulked, but you arrived in Birmingham smiling!  :wink:

I for one was glad you did!  :P

....Cheers, Green and Steve :happy2:. Sulking just doesn't solve any problems. Besides, I'm an optimist!

It was very useful to see a boost graph but I have to say that I am a bit put off by Weston's tendency to trash JKM's proposals and wanting me to come to them and pay £99/hr, especially without any specific ideas or any knowledge of the 2.0T FSI !! Greg, their rolling-road op was clearly very skilled indeed, but what makes him "the best in the country" according to Weston? Nah, I'm put off Weston regarding working on my car. That young mechanic was about to brute force rip off my engine cover before I asked you guys to help - Without even undoing the MAF and Carbonio!!!! They are Jap specialists with a good set of rollers - I'd be more confident in my VW dealers.

What's the betting that JKM already know that my turbo peaks and then drops badly. JKM's attitude is 'Don't worry, it's tricky but we'll sort it' whereas Weston's is 'It's "serious" but we want to help' (at £99/hr).



^Wow! Dig those dancin' shoes!! I didn't realise when I bought them as Winter driving shoes (they are Nike basketball) that they were quite so 'loud'!! They do have blue carbonfibre bits though. I shall start a new thread on them.




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Offline Greeners

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2008, 01:32:18 PM »
I agree Robin, stick with what/who you know, I wouldn't let them near my car as they didn't even know how to get the engine cover off! As you say they are Jap specialists, stick to the VW guys  :wink:

Offline neg

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2008, 11:12:35 PM »
Robin, very interested to see you having simliar issues to what I think I have.

When I bought my car I went to Stage 2 + Milly immediately and loved it, went on the RR day at Awesome and results were 252bhp/280ft-lbs which I was happy with, I have since added the fuel pump and has Stage2+ installed and a further RR day then saw 234bhp/275ft-lbs which was not all that great (wasnt a good day for K03 cars).

The problems I noticed was my boost would never meet requested, it would hit 1.3bar even if the ECU was requesting more, my gut feeling is that its a turbo issue or possible N75 but with the location of this on the TFSI being a right PITA its not easy to change.

I have had all the hoses checked, PCV swapped, DV swapped from forge to stock to latest revision stock which made no difference.

When I get the car back I will be doing some logging to see if I narrow it down further.

As for your original questions, you can get recon turbo's from VW, I had a recon K04 on my LCR when that lost its oil feed and creamed the turbo.   As for which on the GTI - I would be tempted with a K04 - but for the price tag the KO3 would be the sensible option, like you say its powerful enough.

Do you have any logs from yours to see what its doing - boost / maf / n75 ?


Edit:  just looked back at my logs from when I had the car first remapped and it didnt boost above 1.3bar back then but still made the first results above (in April)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2008, 11:39:06 PM by neg »

Offline neg

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2008, 11:41:43 PM »
By looking at the duty cycle of the N75 you can determine how hard your turbo is working to provide the requested pressure.

YOu can buy a turbo on an exchange basis from VW but I'm unsure of the pricing.  The part number will normally end with an X.

I didnt think you could tell as it just gets to 99.6% from a remapped car..?

I have eventually got myself an S3 IC mate!  Not the DV relocation ...yet

Offline bacillus

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2008, 12:00:41 AM »
So when are you going to install it neg?
Without traction power is nothing!

Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2008, 12:17:16 AM »
....

Very useful to be able to share this, neg. The problem sounds almost identical.

As posted earlier, you can see that JKM have done the same checks as you and having drawn a blank, they now want to check the turbo itself.

My gauge isn't really much help because the leak isn't major enough to overcome the ECU's efforts to request and there's sufficient pressure in the piping etc. The gauge is displaying the normal -22 in the vacuum side when idling and in Stock map it max's about +16ish and +21 psi in Stage2 map, but only when pushed instead of easily.

She spikes at about 1.2 bar and then drops dramatically. JKM have all the logs, not myself.

Topher told me that the K03 uses a similar housing to the Mk4 turbo which was known for hairline crack issues. Why the feck don't VW sort out known issues like that and the Monza white worm corrosion?

I'm at 56k miles, what's yours?

Obviously I'll keep this thread up to date.







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Offline RedRobin

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Re: Down on power....
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2008, 12:21:12 AM »
So when are you going to install it neg?

....Please don't take this in an unfriendly way, but can we keep this particular thread on topic because it's a problem solving thread (hopefully!).

And yes, I know I'm one of the worst for going off topic  :happy2:


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