MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: poko on December 23, 2009, 09:11:00 pm
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hi all,
my first post here , :)
I am just starting to build my car (Seat Cupra, but same chassis as mk5) and I am extremely unfocused in what direction to go with my coilovers.
that's the car :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fac330%2Farielpoko%2FPB260215.jpg&hash=0af22318660babc55f7ef7d46a55048bda0d7a9d)
The car, although is a daily driver is really a "toy" and is meant to be in the end very dynamic and sporty.
It is not the main car we use for long drives, so it will be work-home and some fun driving.
Most of the time the car is driven on the street, with 10-15 times a year on the track (very technical one).
Road quality here in Israel is very poor, many speed bumps and potholes.
I have sampled several mk5's with different suspension setups and really disliked all of them
I have driven two pss9 / pss10 cars and I honestly think this is one of the most overrated coils on the market. It is very stiff as a daily drive coil but once you start to demand, you get very little for that stiffness and it is really not that good.
Several KW v1 and v2 cars I have ridden on are really OK, but nothing more than that. Nice (not excellent) road manners with OK hard driving.
So basically I've narrowed down my options to the two best in the extremes:
1) Tein Euro -
The tein Euro is the "smart" version of the koni FSD with electronic valve system. Basically it is soft until you start to drive hard and then it tightens.
Another Huge advantage is the EDFC system that allows me to control the suspension from inside the car and go in seconds from aggressive mode to cruising modes.
The problem is that even aggressive mode is not that aggressive, with spring rates of 5 front and 4 back, it is really not a track coil.
I have not driven this set and most information is from WhiteJames review.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmy335i.net%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2F%2FB%2FS%2FBS-S14.jpg&hash=472c946d18782b7b3baff86ff78f50d550637dbc)
2) Cross Competition (Jic) –
This set is real sportive and track oriented with many unique features. This is really a no compromise coil.
The problem is that with spring rates of 9 front and 6 back and being track oriented I am really afraid that it will be undrivable on our streets, especially with the 27mm bars I am using.
again i have not driven those, and i go by DanGsr review.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vwtuningmag.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F02%2Fjic-golf-4-coilover.jpg&hash=a6366c76d651a05abb116827f6d6a6831035bc1a)
Please help me, tell me your opinion or other suggestions.
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welcome to the forum-a lot of members on here view the kw v3 to be good,some one on here will give you better information than me
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welcome to the forum-a lot of members on here view the kw v3 to be good,some one on here will give you better information than me
I use V3s Find them very stiff for day driving but for me it is bearable. They are very adjustable. KW can give researched settings for many tracks workdwideor advise on settings over the phone :happy2:
Very nice leon by the way!!
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for me the kw V3 is not a good option.
i like to drive hard, track etc but i have little time to fiddling with the car myself.
setting up the suspension is even more important than which one you get and with the 1 million settings on the v3 i honestly think i will never get the suspension sorted up right.
i preffer an "easier" setup or the real charmer like the the case of the TEIN , the ability to dial suspension settings from inside the car.
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welcome to the forum-a lot of members on here view the kw v3 to be good,some one on here will give you better information than me
I use V3s Find them very stiff for day driving but for me it is bearable. They are very adjustable. KW can give researched settings for many tracks workdwideor advise on settings over the phone :happy2:
Very nice leon by the way!!
how hard was it for you to set up the v3 ? did you reach a real fine tune with those ?
btw... in Uk forums you like to complain on your B roads , come drive in ours :)
about the car, its just starting out , big plans to come.
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i forgot to mention important things, which are the other suspension mods.
on the way i have :
1) Peloquin Diff
2) front and rear APR 27mm anti roll bars
3) BSH engine mount
so the APR's are going to stiffen the car quite alot , i am really afraid that Cross / V3 will make it undrivable.
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i run kw v3 and you can have them setup however u want them to handle as i had mine setup by vw racing on the scales and they are perfect for both track and everyday driving 20k plus a year and thats with my 2 year old and the wife in the car.
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if thats the case then why not go for the KW V1 or bilstein B14s. they are set on the best all round setting before hand by the kw factory and are non adjustable.
i was under the impression that the bisteins were alot stiffer than the KWs ride wise. Also the non adjustable bilsteins were also designed around the nurburgring which is a very undulating and bumpy track.
i think if you are interested in the best spring rates etc or damping rates you might be better off waiting for jonnyc to come along. thats his bread and butter, he should be able to point you in the right direction. if i remember correctly he had an individual speced coilover setup from AST previously, with his own specified spring rates and damping rates
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the problem is with v3 that no one in israel specializes in coils , i will have to rely on kw phone support and that's not the best way to set up suspension.
as for v1 or b14 - they are not serious coils, they are factory upgrade option if you want mild improvment over stock handling. i've ridden v1's and they are nice and soft on the road , but you can't demand a lot out of them.
as for bilstein's , i don't know why , but i was horribly dissappointed from the pss9/10. harsh ride with no return for that in handling. for example i rode a car with Koni coils which are cheaper and softer and i can honestly say that they were as good as the bilsteins in handling while being much softer.
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If you think Bilsteins are harsh, then you've obviously been in a poorly set up car. They're the easiest to adjust and on par with race suspension. High end KW's likewise, but a pain to tweak.
I don't have Bilsteins BTW, so I'm not playing fanboy.
You want suspension you can use on a race track, buy race suspension. Bilstein will provide you with optimised settings for road and track for you and your car and it's as easy as turning a dial.
Oh, loving the matt vinyl :happy2:
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its not vinyl its painted matt black
Now being repainted at 200 miles on the clock in lambo nero nemesis
Specialist flying from germany monday to do it
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:surprised:
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Poko- havent you gone Big Turbo with your car? I seem to recognise it from another forum?
Welcomes any how!!
Plenty of gurus to take advise from over here!!
What about the club sports that TC has?
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what colour is that -lambo nero nemesis- any links.
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Hi Poko,
I have the Bilsteins and have had Eibach's (basically KW V1) beforehand. The Bilsteins are excellent on my set-up, so can only summise that the car you had a go in must have had some other issues. The Billies are also in a completely different league to the Eibach's. :happy2:
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Poko- havent you gone Big Turbo with your car? I seem to recognise it from another forum?
Welcomes any how!!
Plenty of gurus to take advise from over here!!
What about the club sports that TC has?
I wanted to go big turbo with my car, but after conulting many people including Hurdy who reffered me to this forum , i decided to stick with k04.
i would probably be as fast if not faster in most common situations with thek04 and i would save myself a lot of money in the BT upgrade.
that might still change , but for now that's the decision.
about the club sports, aren't those a real extreme set not really for road use ?
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what colour is that -lambo nero nemesis- any links.
although a little off topic - this is the nero nemesis :
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.carzi.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Flamborghini_matte_black_lp560_4_image0061.jpg&hash=f190bcfdd7ccb9b9340c1c6fee7f551c1adef294)
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Hi Poko,
I have the Bilsteins and have had Eibach's (basically KW V1) beforehand. The Bilsteins are excellent on my set-up, so can only summise that the car you had a go in must have had some other issues. The Billies are also in a completely different league to the Eibach's. :happy2:
well , i know that a lot of people like the PSS , and maybe the cars i drove had issues (although one of them for sure made a lot of effort in getting it right), but after that experience , personally i will stay away from them.
as KW goes , V1 and V2 are basically Koni's with different springs. the shock body is koni all the way and getting the koni coils is a much better value for money.
the v3 is a different story , as they designed the shock inhouse, haven't driven those , but they are suppoused to be good.
TFSI MIKE - you have those, how much harser they are compared to stock cupra units ?
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Its all in the setup on v3 as when mine were first put on the car crashed around abit but once I had the it corner weighed and setup with me in the car to get the balance correct the car is so much better and is a pleasure to drive hard on track and is do smooth off track in everyday driving
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Itonce I had the it corner weighed and setup with me in the car
you are right ... but no one in israel can do that for me.
so with a suspension with less options , or an option to set it directly from inside the car i can get to the right setup more quickly.
although i start to consider the v3 more.
my problem is that every forum has its own "favorite" suspension , if you read in the US forums you will see that the cross competition is highly rated , and it really is a very unique coil , however much stiffer than the v3. jap forums swear by tein coils.
do you know what are the spring rates on the V3 ?
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Here's a V3 review for you Poko :happy2:
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76450
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Here's a V3 review for you Poko :happy2:
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76450
I read it already , and although this review is good , whitejames is mainly focused on road handling and NVH.
note that after this review he wrote several threads mentioning that the V3 is too stiff for him and he changed it to almost softest position and later on before he sold his car he bough an HPA coilover (really soft)
no one here commented on the CROSS but there is also an excellent review by DANGSR who is more sport oriented :
http://www.golfmk5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34187 (http://www.golfmk5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34187)
i can get the cross cheap (2025$ from the US) which puts them in the same price bracket as the v3. they are for sure much sportier, have camber plates , adjustable body length etc. my only real fear is that they are described as much stiffer then the v3.
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I have the V3's and i believe that you'll get a far better suspension with the cross, some details on them seems more thought about than the v3's. :tree:
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the fact that CROSS is a better design an value then the V3 is clear in my mind.
however they are race oriented and i am really afraid that with 27mm ARB's they will be undrivable on potholes etc.
like driving on bricks.
i really want to know the spring rates on the v3's to compare them (not in the review)
what i have now is that the cross is 9 front and 6 rear compared with the TEIN's which are 5 front and 4 rear.
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Forgive me if this seems rude, but I'm guessing money isn't really an option here?
I'd still go Bilsteins if I was spending my money. I bought my car already on Eibachs and although they're wonderfully plush on the road, they're too soft for some tracks I've driven. They're not a bad enough compromise to go to the expense of swapping them, so I just up the ARB rates to counter from med-hard (25mm Autotech hollow ARBs)
Clubsports I wouldn't have thought were an issue in your climate. They're not stainless so corrode on our salty/wet roads - you should be ok with nothing more than giving them a thin coat of Waxoil or something similar just to keep them gunk free.
Given an unlimited budget, I'd be going for custom Ohlins with remote resevoirs. They'll spec them for a switchable road and track set up, which on a remote res will take you less than a minute.
Also, I notice you're hung up on spring rates, you need to look at damping and valving too - springs alone don't make a ride.
Someone like JonnyC is a good person to ask about spec.
Lastly if ride is harsh, there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Those Cupra discs/calipers weight the same as the moon, a change out to some proper brakes and alloy wishbones will remove a lot of unsprung weight and take some of the crash out of the ride. Likewise dropping to lightweight wheels and maybe even running a 17" on the road to allow for a little more tyre comfort too.
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thank for the reply.
as for budget issues, i do have budget issues and the cross are around 2000$ (1200 pounds) , so very far from unlimited budget. and i guess custom Ohlins will be much much more than that.
as for the clubsports, i really don't care about corrosion , that's not an issue in israel at all , we have 0 days a year of snow and maybe 20 days of rain ... not really an issue there.
however, i have yet to meet / spoken / saw anything about those clubsports so i have abolutly no idea what they are like.
as for cupra disks/brakes , yes , they are heavy , however after checking several options, it will be around another 2000$ to replace them to something worthwhile , it is on the wish list , but for the future.
as for wheels, that's on the plan.
in Coils the different between PSS / v3 / Cross etc is maximum 500-700$ , so i am willing to spend that extra to be happy now and not regret my choice.
as for the clubsports , anyone with experience ?
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send TC/ TOP CAT on here a pm as he runs them on his car :smiley:
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just looked at ohlins :)
there is a set for MK5 suppoused to be released dec/09
but no info yet.
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As does Ian (Msportman) - he tracks his car a fair bit too.
Sorry Poko, when I saw you were flying someone in from Germany to paint a car, I kind of assumed you don't mind spending!
It's all about the set up, cornerweighting and someone who knows what they're doing makes the difference like night and day.
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Sorry Poko, when I saw you were flying someone in from Germany to paint a car, I kind of assumed you don't mind spending!
long story , but , VW is paying the guy to fly paint my car.
i couldn't pay what he charges for the hour , let alone for a job like this
this guy is responsible for maybe 30-40% of the show cars paints you see in shows like frankfurt , he charges tens of thousands of euros to paint a car.
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Poko You can order any spring rate you want with the Kw V3 I dont know what the customer service is like in your country but the KW chaps over here are really helpful although there is limits to what they know about the product.
Also if you ring VWR over here they are very experienced with KW and they can basically ring up Germany give them your brief of what you are looking for and they will come back with various rates of springs that will suit your needs. :happy2:
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topcat , thanks for the post here and the PM , you really got me interested in the clubsports.
as for VWR , i guess they will be willing to help only if i buy through them , and the price difference to the US is huge.
i can get V3's around 1,800$ in the US right now.
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thank for the reply.
as for budget issues, i do have budget issues and the cross are around 2000$ (1200 pounds) , so very far from unlimited budget. and i guess custom Ohlins will be much much more than that.
as for the clubsports, i really don't care about corrosion , that's not an issue in israel at all , we have 0 days a year of snow and maybe 20 days of rain ... not really an issue there.
however, i have yet to meet / spoken / saw anything about those clubsports so i have abolutly no idea what they are like.
as for cupra disks/brakes , yes , they are heavy , however after checking several options, it will be around another 2000$ to replace them to something worthwhile , it is on the wish list , but for the future.
as for wheels, that's on the plan.
in Coils the different between PSS / v3 / Cross etc is maximum 500-700$ , so i am willing to spend that extra to be happy now and not regret my choice.
as for the clubsports , anyone with experience ?
I have no experience with øhlins on cars, but from my experience in RR bikes, the are among the best, problem is they are for people with sponsors that will pay the huge bills for keeping them maintained and serviced, they require a lot of service and often also, so you will spend more money keeping them serviced than buying them.
As Tony wrote lighter brakes S3/TT lower arms in alloy together with lighter wheels may help you live with Cross or KW Clubsport.
Just my penny worth :driver:
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i am pretty certain the the Cupra has the lighter front arms.
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topcat , thanks for the post here and the PM , you really got me interested in the clubsports.
as for VWR , i guess they will be willing to help only if i buy through them , and the price difference to the US is huge.
i can get V3's around 1,800$ in the US right now.
If you ask to speak to Mat when you ring VWR and tell him this forum said you would help me, if they are not rushed off there feet they will defiantly help you they have a really good relationship with KW they even get there own colour blue on the springs instead of the standard yellow as you can just see in this pic.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ftomashandmilly%2Fpics_since_clubsports%2F12.jpg&hash=9fc0d63d0e3f27193c12d7f0ff8fbbb91a59a9e7)
Also Julian at balance motorsport is very Knowledgeable about the product and is also very helpful. :happy2:
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top cat ,
the main question that rises after your answer is :
where the **** can i get a set of wheels like yours ? :happy2:
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they are works VS-XX. Work wheels USA will point you in the right direction. :santa:
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Hi Poko,
I have the Bilsteins and have had Eibach's (basically KW V1) beforehand. The Bilsteins are excellent on my set-up, so can only summise that the car you had a go in must have had some other issues. The Billies are also in a completely different league to the Eibach's. :happy2:
well , i know that a lot of people like the PSS , and maybe the cars i drove had issues (although one of them for sure made a lot of effort in getting it right), but after that experience , personally i will stay away from them.
as KW goes , V1 and V2 are basically Koni's with different springs. the shock body is koni all the way and getting the koni coils is a much better value for money.
the v3 is a different story , as they designed the shock inhouse, haven't driven those , but they are suppoused to be good.
TFSI MIKE - you have those, how much harser they are compared to stock cupra units ?
Feel alot of little bumps. Awesome Gti told me they were at the default setting. I find them ok on the road, it is very subjective though everyones idea of what they want from a daily drive is different. Im sure you could tell you tuner or speak to KW about what kind of ride you want and they would set them or advise how to set them accordingly...
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typical awesome :rolleye: what is the point of just bunging on fully adjustable coils if they are not going to set them up :stupid: it makes them a waste of ££££ as thats the point of them :stupid: GET THEM SET UP :rolleye:
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I don't think they have the means to cornerweight for starters, they need sorting Mike - bet you can get a 100% improvement on them.
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typical awesome :rolleye: what is the point of just bunging on fully adjustable coils if they are not going to set them up :stupid: it makes them a waste of ££££ as thats the point of them :stupid: GET THEM SET UP :rolleye:
True. I was just happy at the time as Id had Cooler, Pump, 2+ Map, Roll bars, V3s, Dbilas all fitted
Vwr have suggested a session to set it all up appropriately...
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get yourself booked in at vwr mate its worth the drive as the car will handle like it should :driver:
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you might be able to keep up with the blue bolt then mike :grin:
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you might be able to keep up with the blue bolt then mike :grin:
Blue bolt.... *sarcastic snigger :wink:
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ok , just an update.
i have narrowed it down to 3 models.
1) KW ClubSports (topcat recommendation) , sound like they are not extremly harsh and have camber plates
2) JIC CROSS COMPETITION - i think they are superior in design to the KW , but i am not certain how much harser they are.
3) NEW SACHS COILOVERS - read some great reviews in us forums and sachs is a great company.
does anyone here in the forum installed or heard of the SACHS ? they don't have camber plates but they are suppoused to be a great compromise of road/track.
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ok , just an update.
i have narrowed it down to 3 models.
1) KW ClubSports (topcat recommendation) , sound like they are not extremly harsh and have camber plates
2) JIC CROSS COMPETITION - i think they are superior in design to the KW , but i am not certain how much harser they are.
3) NEW SACHS COILOVERS - read some great reviews in us forums and sachs is a great company.
does anyone here in the forum installed or heard of the SACHS ? they don't have camber plates but they are suppoused to be a great compromise of road/track.
cocopops was selling some sachs coillies, dont know if he still has them but i think hes the only member on here with them.