MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: xjay1337 on November 02, 2015, 01:46:31 pm

Title: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on November 02, 2015, 01:46:31 pm
Can I get a bit of input from those knowledgable or have tried a variety of pads.
Both Rich and I seem to have this problem, me more so than him.

I did a trackday last Wednesday and the brakes did not fade at all. However by midway through my second session I was getting HUGE wheel shake (to the point where I thought the subframe was going to fall off) and ultimately why I stopped after one session after lunch

I have 340mm EBC USR Slotted rotors and Pagid rs4-2s. All were new fitted in December last year with new TTRS calipers and new fluid
The car has seen (fast) road use

Breaking from around 100 to 40 would give an AWFUL amount of vibration. sometimes it would be OK but you'd go to use them again and it'd be awful.
Once you hit 40 it stopped and didn't vibrate at all.

Alex seems to think this is pad build up but I'm not sure...

I'll probably be trying some mtec j-hook discs and new pads (either pagid rs29 or some project mu's that alex has) but want to understand what is going on....
shouldn't be getting pad build up with grooved discs.

Ironically now everything has gone back to normal with only a very faint high-speed vibration on light application - heavier stops eliminates the wobble.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on November 02, 2015, 02:02:19 pm
Basically.. the pads just are not great. I think thats what it boils down to.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: pudding on November 02, 2015, 02:35:59 pm
shouldn't be getting pad build up with grooved discs.

Are the grooves filled with compacted brake debris?  My old AP Racing grooved rotors did that.  Had to scrape them out with a pick periodically.  I was using Pagid RS15 at the time, which is a very soft pad.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on November 02, 2015, 08:01:02 pm
shouldn't be getting pad build up with grooved discs.

Are the grooves filled with compacted brake debris?  My old AP Racing grooved rotors did that.  Had to scrape them out with a pick periodically.  I was using Pagid RS15 at the time, which is a very soft pad.

Does look like theres some build up in there.
But surely this shouldn't happen.
I am not sure if its pad build up or the remnants of the black coating that was on the disk when new.

Ironically some of the grooves have flattened off... these pads may have ruined the discs.

Overall I am not really impressed. Its a shame really.  They never faded.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: pudding on November 03, 2015, 10:38:16 am
I used DS2000, YellowStuff (rubbish), DS3000, RS15 and some Performance Friction Carbon Metallic...... they all clogged up the grooves with pad material.  And yep, the grooves will wear down also.  I wanted plain discs as it was predominantly a road car, but AP only offered drilled or grooved.  Not a fan of either tbh.

To be fair, I did get about 40,000 miles out of a set of AP grooved rotors before the grooves disappeared, though.   I used to clear them out every 500 miles or so.  Only took a few mins a side.  I did used to get a very harsh rumble through the pedal with soft pads like the RS15 too.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on November 03, 2015, 10:46:51 am
I hope I get 40k out of mine. That should mean mine last another 2-3 years
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on November 03, 2015, 11:35:25 am

I have had this too. @DaveB@Vagbremtechnic able to offer any input?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: dan930 on November 03, 2015, 11:53:03 am
I've also,had this too..sometimes I get vibration between 80-85
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on November 03, 2015, 12:57:55 pm

My vibration happens under braking
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: dan930 on November 03, 2015, 01:05:23 pm
I used to get it between 55-60,but it's gone now,sometimes I get it between 80-85
& if I brake between 70-80 HARD
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Wash on November 03, 2015, 01:28:24 pm
Is this just not warped discs?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on November 03, 2015, 01:30:07 pm
I should hope not with fully floating 370mm brembo motorsport rotors  :scared:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: pudding on November 03, 2015, 01:48:45 pm
Just to clarify, my vibration wasn't warped rotors (pulsing pedal), it was more like a grinding feel, like the ABS kicked in.  Pretty sure that was just soft pads being chewed up by the grooves in my case.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on November 03, 2015, 02:12:40 pm
Is this just not warped discs?

Its very hard to warp a disc... and even harder if its 2 piece. But its very easy to get the pad outside their correct working temperatures and make them sh*t themselves.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on November 03, 2015, 05:29:03 pm
Is this just not warped discs?

I wouldn't expect EBC rotors to warp in about 30k of mostly motorway mileage. I don't slam my brakes on and then sit on them. never had a warped set of brakes in my life less so with a new brake set up costing north of £1200 (I did source the discs on mine own cos Alex's ones were unfortunately not in stock).

Already going to try looking at new discs and pads in the coming months.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Bignod00 on November 03, 2015, 06:19:10 pm
 :popcornsoda:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: flashp on November 03, 2015, 09:25:42 pm
I had this with S3 rotors and DS2500 pads. It was pad pick-up.
Not great pads on a trackday.

I have different brakes now but I'm using Pagid RST3's which have had no issues at all.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Johnsy on December 21, 2015, 11:29:06 pm
I thought warped discs was an Internet myth.

Interesting thread as Iv not long gone the TTRS caliper route,albeit with the 340 j hooked discs but running a cheap pagid pad for daily use.

You got any track footage?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 21, 2015, 11:37:43 pm
This is pad deposit not disc warping.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on December 21, 2015, 11:49:24 pm
W4nk pads
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: r5gtt on December 22, 2015, 12:12:30 am
Usually discs being too hot and warp causing vibration as I had this on mk1 tt and had to replace discs and pads. It was mapped stage 1 with LCR Brembo's.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 22, 2015, 12:13:41 am
To warp a disc you have done well. It's 99% more likely to have her pad deposit. Unless you checked them for run out?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: r5gtt on December 22, 2015, 12:19:07 am
To warp a disc you have done well. It's 99% more likely to have her pad deposit. Unless you checked them for run out?
I did check the discs at work for run out and confirmed they were buggered.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 22, 2015, 12:20:21 am
In that case well done. Not the case here tho.

Some dodgy geezer sold me these pads..... Never agsin
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on December 22, 2015, 12:30:15 am
Skim / grind your rotors to fix it Rich? Or just give em a battering with different pads/ rs29

Makes me sick what the blues cost when I think of be vibrations when I press the slow pedal
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: r5gtt on December 22, 2015, 12:31:56 am
In that case well done. Not the case here tho.

Some dodgy geezer sold me these pads..... Never agsin
Shame that... dodgy fecklers out there  :fighting:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on December 22, 2015, 12:32:54 am

I didn't get the dti on them but am sure it was deposits from the blues.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: r5gtt on December 22, 2015, 12:42:11 am
blues?. pads.

Your running some expensive set up so maybe the pads are fouling the discs and causing vibration but personally I've not heard of this before. Happened to my brothers Carrera 4s so we bought oem parts and once discs and pads were replaced bedding in time was given to around 500 miles. They were fine after that. maybe just a coincidence.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on December 22, 2015, 12:22:30 pm
Brand new calipers, new fluid, new discs and pads and they'd be warped from road use after 30k? Don't think so.
3 of us having this problem, pretty sure it's the pads.
Plus because it comes and goes, it's not a disc issue.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: flashp on December 22, 2015, 12:33:24 pm
Skim / grind your rotors to fix it Rich? Or just give em a battering with different pads/ rs29

Makes me sick what the blues cost when I think of be vibrations when I press the slow pedal
Dress the disc face to remove the transfer layer and changing compound should fix it.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Scottymon on December 22, 2015, 01:06:40 pm
It sucks these pads aren't working out for you lot.  Discs have got to be ruled out you'd think with the different setups being used.

Anyone fired a mail Pagid's way yet?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 22, 2015, 01:24:10 pm
Do they have a UK contact?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Scottymon on December 22, 2015, 08:36:03 pm
Not sure mate, quick scan reveals: http://www.pagidprofessional.co.uk/contact-us/  But they might only deal with re-sellers etc.

Still, I don't see why the Mk5 platform would be giving issues over another... is this a bad batch of sub-par pad material?  As Jay describes they get worse as the heat / track time increases... Any other forums talking negatively about these pads recently?

If I didn't still have single pots I'd be giving the Carbone Lorraine a shout and send the Pagid's back as they don't seem fit for purpose :|
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: flashp on December 22, 2015, 10:17:04 pm
If anyone is thinking of trying a different brand I can recommend Carbotech over Pagid.
I know we're talking about a different pad compared to the Pagids I had but moving to a Carbotech equivalent has solved my issues. They appear to be a very good quality pad.
Jim at JKM recommended them to me based on his and some other customer feedback. They ordered and fitted mine. Although mine were made to order they arrived in under 2 weeks.

http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm (http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm)
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: r5gtt on December 22, 2015, 10:20:10 pm
Sorry I should have read new parts a year old so obviously nothing can be wrong with the discs...
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Johnsy on December 22, 2015, 10:28:05 pm
If anyone is thinking of trying a different brand I can recommend Carbotech over Pagid.
I know we're talking about a different pad compared to the Pagids I had but moving to a Carbotech equivalent has solved my issues. They appear to be a very good quality pad.
Jim at JKM recommended them to me based on his and some other customer feedback. They ordered and fitted mine. Although mine were made to order they arrived in under 2 weeks.

http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm (http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm)

You using the xp10 pad?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: flashp on December 23, 2015, 08:26:51 am
If anyone is thinking of trying a different brand I can recommend Carbotech over Pagid.
I know we're talking about a different pad compared to the Pagids I had but moving to a Carbotech equivalent has solved my issues. They appear to be a very good quality pad.
Jim at JKM recommended them to me based on his and some other customer feedback. They ordered and fitted mine. Although mine were made to order they arrived in under 2 weeks.

http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm (http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm)

You using the xp10 pad?

I am, yes. I could have also chosen XP8 but 10's suit the vehicle weight better.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on December 23, 2015, 10:14:17 am
May look into those ones flash, altho i had my heart set on some project mu's.
either that or pagid rs29 yellows which apparently arent too bad.
doing some research shows the rs4-2 to be a widespread issue.

http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=15&t=659890&nmt=
http://www.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyres-and-brakes-
623-vibrations-after-mounting-pagid-discs-and-pads.html


Sorry I should have read new parts a year old so obviously nothing can be wrong with the discs...

Especially as both Rich and I have different discs!  :happy2:

Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Johnsy on December 23, 2015, 10:48:30 am
Have you priced the project mu's ?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 23, 2015, 10:53:53 am
yes.... Ive applied for a suitable bank loan but I am not sure they will go for it
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: dan930 on December 23, 2015, 11:41:26 am
Have you priced the project mu's ?

I think there are around £300-400
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: flashp on December 23, 2015, 12:10:02 pm
My XP10's were a smidgen under £300 iirc.
I read the PH thread, they're talking of Lotus brakes which (if they're like the VX I had) an AP caliper. So a good quality part and good discs again.
Has everyone here fitted their own or does anyone have a garage who could represent them to Pagid?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 23, 2015, 12:11:24 pm
Alex fitted mine. @vRSAlex (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1981)
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on December 23, 2015, 01:33:42 pm
Have you priced the project mu's ?

I think there are around £300-400

Believe they're 380 retail

got my pads from Alex.
as said happy with everything else but the pads are a let down to be honest long term, as i said pagid 29 yellows may be better, a lot of people on bmw forums moved from the 4-2 to the 29 and report it's better and none of the vibration issues.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: dan930 on December 23, 2015, 02:23:29 pm
Alex fitted mine. @vRSAlex (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1981)

Alex fitted mine too
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: flashp on December 23, 2015, 02:49:12 pm
Could Alex start some dialogue on behalf of you all with Pagid?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 23, 2015, 02:50:27 pm
tried to find a uk contact... seems like eurocarparts are the uk main point of contact.... id rather stick pins in my eyes then deal with them as a go between.... i want to speak to them direct
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 23, 2015, 03:16:58 pm
Just in contact with with UK importer and technical partner for the RS range  :happy2:

See what comes of it.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on December 24, 2015, 09:33:09 am
After hearing the feedback from the UK importer I would totally avoid the Pagid RS4-2 pads and also based on my own experience.
Would like to be clear that I have no issues with the rest of the brake setup and would recommend both it and alex every time.
just get either pagid rs29 or project mu's or some other pad.

apparently a track-biased pad is easily overheated when on a road car.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on December 24, 2015, 10:10:20 am
Yeah. Not a hugely satisfactory response. Gonna let Alex take a look at them and hopefully demo the vibration to him take it from there.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: flashp on December 24, 2015, 10:15:44 am
After hearing the feedback from the UK importer I would totally avoid the Pagid RS4-2 pads and also based on my own experience.
Would like to be clear that I have no issues with the rest of the brake setup and would recommend both it and alex every time.
just get either pagid rs29 or project mu's or some other pad.

apparently a track-biased pad is easily overheated when on a road car.
Something related to this became clear to me when I chose my new pads. The weight of the vehicle is a an important consideration.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on December 24, 2015, 12:00:26 pm
I guess so, but our cars aren't particularly heavy.We are well over-braked for our cars. It's not like we're stopping bentleys lol

I'm just going to have to live with it and when I'm at Alex's getting the harnesses sorted I'll have to buy some new pads.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: dan930 on January 06, 2016, 11:54:11 am
A bit off topic,I payed £1250 for the vagbremtechnic discs with carriers & hel brake lines
How much are the discs alone
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 06, 2016, 01:27:00 pm
Just the rotors or bell and rotors?

Just the AP rotors are around 450 for a pair.

or reyland do some for 295. J hooked
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: dan930 on January 06, 2016, 01:44:53 pm
Just the rotors or bell and rotors?

Just the AP rotors are around 450 for a pair.

or reyland do some for 295. J hooked
Rotors& bell
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 06, 2016, 01:53:04 pm
Dunno... would have thought about 950 maybe... speak to alex if you need a firm price.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 06, 2016, 11:04:52 pm
Out in the car today.... same problem. I am wondering if wet and drying the discs would help
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on January 06, 2016, 11:29:44 pm
I was going to do that but then I used Iron x and a stiff brush to clean the grooves which fixed it.

Annoyingly the problem comes and goes. It may be fine one day and then bad the next.
wet weather seems to cause more issues.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: dan930 on January 07, 2016, 11:51:47 am
I was going to do that but then I used Iron x and a stiff brush to clean the grooves which fixed it.

Annoyingly the problem comes and goes. It may be fine one day and then bad the next.
wet weather seems to cause more issues.

Yes,very true
Most of the times I get the vibration but somedays I don't get it
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 08, 2016, 08:52:11 pm
OK, to help...

What was your bed-in procedure? For a race pad, you need to be pretty much trying to kill them to get them to cure. You need to get them hot enough to 'burn out' the resin in the pad, looking at the cross section of a properly bedded pad, it should have at least half of it looking scorched.

If you haven't removed the resin, it'll just leach out every time they get hot and melt all over your disc causing vibrations. Some makes are worse than others, granted, but the same should apply for the same reason to any pad. You can remove this pickup with a garnet paper flapper wheel on a drill if you don't want to skim/regrind them. Don't use anything else, it'll knacker the disc.

Below is an image of someone bedding a pad on a dyno, you really do have to have them stupid hot, I used to have smoke billowing out of my brakes when bedding.

Latterly, were the pads of the right temp range for your car? Have you got readings from the brakes to know what range they operate in to select the right pad for your application?

In essence, the pads themselves were fine. Just maybe not the right choice for your car, and that's down to whoever recommended them or you not doing your research properly.

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Finsideracingtechnology.com%2FResources%2Fbrakedyno.jpg&hash=b4d5906480fd83251a708ce1ced188d582ee472f)

For the future, what level of cooling do you have? Ducting? Deflectors? Have you removed the stone shields?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 08, 2016, 09:15:58 pm
Pads recommend and bedsed in by Alex. No brake cooling. No brake stone guards.

Spent 2k on this kit and the pads are the weakness. At some point I've cooked them and breaking from 100 mph is horrid. Need to sand the discs.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 08, 2016, 09:44:23 pm
£2k. Ok. You're committed to these then.

I can't say how well bedded they were, how could I? But it sounds like they weren't sufficiently done or they're running massively hotter than the pads can cope with.

Need some temp stickers/paint ideally.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Leglessracing on January 08, 2016, 09:45:57 pm
I've always used project mu pads after an awful experience with pagid. I don't like the pads at all! You definitely get what you pay for in pads!
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 08, 2016, 09:56:43 pm
I've used them with no problems, but then I bought the right pad - I don't mean that in a smug way, but it seems it's easy to fall foul with them.

I run Endless in my current car. Favourite by far.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 08, 2016, 10:24:00 pm
I'm thinking project mu or endless, is the only option. Can i run then on my current discs?

It's ridiculous. I bought this kit because I knew (thought) that they would deal with anything I threw at them, and some. Bit disappointed in the pads. The brakes stop on a 6pence so they do work very effectively. Mike is right I suspect, wrong pad choice.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Leglessracing on January 08, 2016, 11:57:13 pm
I'm thinking project mu or endless, is the only option. Can i run then on my current discs?

It's ridiculous. I bought this kit because I knew (thought) that they would deal with anything I threw at them, and some. Bit disappointed in the pads. The brakes stop on a 6pence so they do work very effectively. Mike is right I suspect, wrong pad choice.

Potentially you could run the same discs. I would take them off to make sure that they are not buckled and caked in resin. As you over heated your pads they may have warped the disc and then they have pretty much had it...
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 12:16:59 am
They wont have warped... 2 piece discs. Jay is on single piece discs, so as we have the exact same issue I'm 10000000% sure it defo the pads/pad deposit.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Johnsy on January 09, 2016, 08:58:20 am
If anyone is thinking of trying a different brand I can recommend Carbotech over Pagid.
I know we're talking about a different pad compared to the Pagids I had but moving to a Carbotech equivalent has solved my issues. They appear to be a very good quality pad.
Jim at JKM recommended them to me based on his and some other customer feedback. They ordered and fitted mine. Although mine were made to order they arrived in under 2 weeks.

http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm (http://www.carbotech-europe.com/compounds.htm)

You using the xp10 pad?

I am, yes. I could have also chosen XP8 but 10's suit the vehicle weight better.


Nice one, I'll give these a go, XP10 are just under £200 for the TTRS caliper.


Any of the lads with the problem pagids , I'll be happy to give these ago on my car on track to see if they cause the same problem .
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 09:27:56 am
What pads have you been running johnsy?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Johnsy on January 09, 2016, 09:45:02 am
What pads have you been running johnsy?

Short answer:- £50 pagids from ECP.

i was after trying them first before I try a dedicated track pad, it would be nice to have an opinion on different pads/brands and thought the £50 pagids would be good for daily duties and a base line to compare any others against . Iv only had the brakes on the car since October so they've not been used in anger as yet



Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 09, 2016, 10:28:10 am
ECP Pagids are made in China under license. I'd throw those in the bin.

I ran XP8s. Excellent pads. Don't bed them on used discs, the compound reacts and it's horrible. At the very least, clean them with a garnet paper flapper on a drill.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 11:01:18 am
Would the same go for any other pads too mike? Endless/Pmu?

Just to clarify the setup here...

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Frich%2Fimg%2FCar%2520Stuff%2FBrembos%2FPhoto%252022-08-2014%252003%252019%252043%2520pm.jpg&hash=2c8ec48c47a15f41c76a2747576055200b640947)

Ignore the lack of pad contact towards the middle of the rotor, that was because of the other F40 calipers (which didnt work) and pad size being wrong.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 09, 2016, 11:31:31 am
I'm confused by the bell. Why is it alloy in the middle? Are they fully floating bobbins, or just fixings, can you see 'tell tale' movement marks to show if they're dealing with the expansion correctly? If they were set to different torques, for example, they may not be dealing with the heat very well and jittering.

Nah, I put Endless straight in after the OE BMW pads and didn't have a problem. Likewise with the RS29s on the one before.

I would pick the Endless ones, mostly due to the fact mine have done 22k & 7 trackdays and they've only gone from 16mm to 11mm. They may cost more, but by God, do they last!!

I used to do a set of XP8s in every 2-3 trackdays.  :signLOL:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 11:35:17 am
That alloy piece is a 8mm spacer to clear wheels. They are fully floating I think, will check for expansion....

Ive had them quite hot only once or twice.



I think im gonna go endless. Where did you buy yours from?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 09, 2016, 02:18:32 pm
Sounds fairly normal. Surprised they're that hot on the road.

http://www.r53engineering.com
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 03:33:32 pm
Cool. I emailed them.

To be honest thats probably the only time they have been that hot.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Johnsy on January 09, 2016, 03:38:49 pm
just out of interest how many cool down laps do you do?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 03:50:06 pm
What? On the road?  :signLOL:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: greygti on January 09, 2016, 08:07:14 pm
I've just fitted the AKS / vagbremtechnic 345 mm DB9 kit with pagid RS4-2 blue pads and so far so good .....I'm just off to touch a large piece of wood
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 09, 2016, 08:31:27 pm
Bed them properly.

Taken from Pagid's info, but essentially the same as I do on any pad:

WHY BEDDING?
To transfer a layer of friction material onto the brake disc (rotor) faces to achieve maximum performance.
To stabilize compressible materials to avoid a spongy pedal.
To boil off volatile elements in the friction compound in order to have the initial green fading during bedding and not during the race.
To align the pad surface with the brake disc (rotor) surface to have full contact.
If pads do not get bedded properly and / or used too hard right out of the box will likely lead to pad glazing. Pad glazing is a condition where the resins in the pad crystallize on both, the pad friction surface and the brake disc (rotor) surface, resulting in poor stopping performance, brake judder and vibrations. Also rapidly escaping volatile elements and moisture from the resin would seek an immediate escape route out of the friction compound, creating small fissures that would lead shortly to cracking and chunking.

RECOMMENDED VEHICLE BEDDING IN PROCEDURE
1. BREAKING-IN
(creating a perfect contact-pattern between rotor and brake pad surface)
10 stops with low pressure and low temperature from 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 80 km/h (50 MPH). Distance between each brake stop approximately 600 – 800 meters ( 600 to 800 yards).
 
2. HEATING-UP
(Warm up in order to initiate some core heat in the whole brake system)
A sequence of 5 stops with medium to high pressure from 180 km/h (112 MPH) to approximately 60 km/h (37 MPH) with maximum acceleration between the stops. After the last stop cool down for 3 minutes with the speed preferably not higher than 100 km/h (62 MPH).
 
3. RECOVERY STOPS
3 to 5 stops with low pressure from 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 80 km/h (50 MPH). Distance between each brake stop approximately 600 – 800 meters ( 600 to 800 yards).

Then drive home and leave them to go stone cold.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 09, 2016, 08:35:40 pm
Rich, is the spacer part of the bell, or on top of it? I don't understand why two different metals would be butted up against each other in the first instance, they have conflicting properties when subjected to heat. If the latter, then it's ok.

To also note, as in the first post by the OP. J hooked, Slotted, Grooved or whatever pattern you like don't stop pads sh*tting themselves all over the disc and causing judder.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 08:49:09 pm
Without spacer
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Frich%2Fimg%2FCar%2520Stuff%2FBrembos%2FPhoto%252012-08-2014%252010%252048%252006%2520am.jpg&hash=4470f13e58f5b5b57da7db15623354291abd34bb)

Better pic to show the spacer (ignore caliper... they were sh*te so came off)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Frich%2Fimg%2FCar%2520Stuff%2FBrembos%2FPhoto%252012-08-2014%252011%252030%252017%2520am.jpg&hash=d846fcdfb1a3fe6c59bb3e9e96063c6765caddce)

As mentioned before... braking from 60-0, causes no vibration and the stop the car incredibly quickly. Its just when over 90-100 (which to be honest isnt very often)
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: patpong_pete on January 09, 2016, 10:32:59 pm
Without spacer
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Frich%2Fimg%2FCar%2520Stuff%2FBrembos%2FPhoto%252012-08-2014%252010%252048%252006%2520am.jpg&hash=4470f13e58f5b5b57da7db15623354291abd34bb)

Better pic to show the spacer (ignore caliper... they were sh*te so came off)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Frich%2Fimg%2FCar%2520Stuff%2FBrembos%2FPhoto%252012-08-2014%252011%252030%252017%2520am.jpg&hash=d846fcdfb1a3fe6c59bb3e9e96063c6765caddce)

As mentioned before... braking from 60-0, causes no vibration and the stop the car incredibly quickly. Its just when over 90-100 (which to be honest isnt very often)

Hi Rich can i ask what make and size of spacer thanks for reply
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 10:38:54 pm
H&R 8mm Hubcentric
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on January 09, 2016, 11:54:54 pm
They wont have warped... 2 piece discs. Jay is on single piece discs, so as we have the exact same issue I'm 10000000% sure it defo the pads/pad deposit.

Yea i have non floating 340mm tts ebc usr discs
Same calipers and pads as rich

I suspect rich drives his car harder than mine (hes a lunatic from the midlands)
Without sounding like a bellend know it all
 i fail to see how ive overheated pads designed for racing with 95% road use (my normal commute is 5jcts  on the motorway lol) and one trackday. Which was possing with rain anyway so not going flat out anyway :-)

They have never faded,  never sat on the brakes after stopping etc. I know about looking after brakes. Alex did all the bedding in and he was gone a good 10 minutes and my car was umm well used when it came back so i have every confidence in him bedding them in.
I may try running through the bedding in process again for what good it wont do.


I phoned alex when i was at the trackday and he was helpful saying it sounded like pad buildup/deposit also.

As i said in the other thread im going back to alex for some more modding and when I'm there as long as its ok with him,  i will whack on some new discs and pads and new fluid  (only just over a year old anyway). It is always in the back of my mind when I'm out for a drive so best remove that.

Cheers for input tony but while the rs42 is a good pad in terms of cost / performance across temp ranges and life (ive got like half the pad left still) i think they are are quite finicky and can (note i said can not are) be problematic for some cars / set up / conditions.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 09, 2016, 11:57:40 pm
Dude I am from Yorkshire. Clown!  :booty:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on January 10, 2016, 02:08:23 am
Dude I am from Yorkshire. Clown!  :booty:

Yes but you have such a priveleged upbringing you sound like any other southerner. You live in the midlands. You are a midlander.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 10, 2016, 08:07:13 am
Jay, if they weren't bedded in properly from the start, you didn't need to overheat them to have them melt their resin all over your disc. Normal operation will do that and you'll have the "glazing" mentioned above in Pagid's info. You've a solid mounted caliper, so even a few thou of deposit can feel like the car is trying to shake itself apart.

10 minutes in the middle of the day (assuming the space and lack of traffic required), unless he's based on an airfield isn't really enough to bed them correctly IMO and what you've got is the result of that failure to boil all the resin out. Any pad you buy will suffer the same problem if you fail to do it likewise... Unless you go for a fully sintered one, like a Carbon Lorraine.

Take the car out at night on a quiet length of bypass etc and warm the brakes with some general use, then do 5 60-20 stops, drive for a mile, do 5 XXX (ahem) to 30 stops, giving it full beans back to XXX after - you should feel the brakes fading, this is correct. Drive for a few miles, doing some more small stops to cool them gently, rather than quickly. Arrive home and leave them to go stone cold till morning.

This should be enough to remove the build up and any remaining resin in the pads.

If it does take a set of new pads and discs to resolve, then be mindful of doing the next set properly.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on January 10, 2016, 11:17:11 am
Ok man, I'll try that.
Again i didnt go with alex as otherwise he'd have had to lock up etc.
There is a bypass 2 minutes from Alex's unit so i assumed he went on that. That being said i cant be sure Alex did it correctly other than trusting him.

I will do as you suggest and see how it goes :-)
 Think it may also be a good idea to sand the discs down  (both sides).
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: tony_danza on January 10, 2016, 02:10:51 pm
I don't mean to sound like I'm having a pop at Alex, I'm sure he gave it a good go and maybe to a method he's used on a different type of pad that worked ok.

Some are, as you say, more temperamental than others and need a very defined bedding to stop problems.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 10, 2016, 02:59:38 pm
Dude I am from Yorkshire. Clown!  :booty:

Yes but you have such a priveleged upbringing you sound like any other southerner. You live in the midlands. You are a midlander.

Hertfordshire is not the midlands... your geography is terrible. :signLOL:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: vRSAlex on January 10, 2016, 07:43:16 pm
Might help with any understanding of why it happens:

http://automotivethinker.com/brakes-2/rotors-blank-vs-cross-drilled-vs-slotted-and-warping/

All pads can do the same thing.

Fair amount of the cause is from pootling around and not getting the pads hot enough.  Once that happens then you get the hot spots where the pad material is bonded to the disc.

Run the RS4-2 in lots of track and fast road cars without issues.  No issues on my van with them. @Bignod00 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=2840) uses them daily with no issue.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Bignod00 on January 10, 2016, 08:41:25 pm
As mentioned above, I use these pads everyday in my car for commuting/fast road driving and I've never had any problems. I'm sorry to hear so many others have been having issues!
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: rich83 on January 10, 2016, 08:54:44 pm
Mine gets a twatting. Never had this issue with any other pad including OEM pads.
I always try to avoid standing on the brakes when stopped.
Garbage.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Bignod00 on January 10, 2016, 08:57:50 pm
How weird mate......!! :sad1:
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on January 11, 2016, 05:38:23 pm
Finally spoke to Alex today  :star:
I've been given a price on some Pmu pads, so I'm going to go with them.
In addition, will whack new discs on and bleed the system so we are starting fresh.

Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: fuscobal on January 11, 2016, 05:59:16 pm
RS 4-2 is a "sporty" street pad good enough for some spirited driving but not on too heavy cars or for circuit racing. Pagid recommends them as a rear pad on track-day cars, along with better gripping pads on front. Had them on my car and replaced them with RS29 and later RSL1. I've had RS29 on both my Polo 6R GTI (standard brakes) and Golf GTI (Ap Racing Pro5000+ brakes). The Polo is my daily commute so I've only had few situations of hard braking from high speed. Of course, immediately after those, brake judder appeared as the brakes weren't heated up prior to those emergency brakes. Same pad on my track Golf were perfect every time. Although the braking was much harder, the pads were always heated up before each session. I don't know how much of a influence was due to the braking system itself but putting some heat into the pads before hard braking is definitely a must.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: Johnsy on January 11, 2016, 06:25:22 pm
Finally spoke to Alex today  :star:
I've been given a price on some Pmu pads, so I'm going to go with them.
In addition, will whack new discs on and bleed the system so we are starting fresh.

Much life left in them pagids ?
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: r5gtt on January 15, 2016, 06:45:04 pm
I was talking to a friend about you're braking woes and he gave me this for you're reference.

Another way to fix you're brake judder is to warm up the braking first and this should stop the vibrations???(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1374.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag433%2FSandy1786%2FMobile%2520Uploads%2F20160115_163359.jpg&hash=18b4bee1f9d0d438308467bb53cef7381de553bc)
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: xjay1337 on January 18, 2016, 10:28:43 am
Finally spoke to Alex today  :star:
I've been given a price on some Pmu pads, so I'm going to go with them.
In addition, will whack new discs on and bleed the system so we are starting fresh.

Much life left in them pagids ?

Yes mate about 1/3 to 1/2 left.
They do last very well to be fair.
Title: Re: Pagid RS4-2s pad build up / vibration
Post by: fuscobal on May 12, 2016, 06:41:01 pm
Changed my RS29 on my daily Polo GTI after 100k km and could have kept them for another 20k. Changed the first OEM discs at 60k so There's 1 set of pads for 2 sets of discs ! Installed the second set of RS29 and this one seems to bite even harder but it's also noisier !