MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: Shoduchi on November 30, 2016, 12:01:19 pm
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We've been talking about octane booster on a bigger turbo topic. Better we stop doing off-topic there and gather info about this option for more performance in a specific topic.
I only have access to petrol with 98 RON octanes, which my tuner says translates to 95 AKI.
Here's a bit of a explanation of what AKI and the other indexes mean taken from Wikipedia:
"Research Octane Number (RON):
The most common type of octane rating worldwide is the Research Octane Number (RON). RON is determined by running the fuel in a test engine with a variable compression ratio under controlled conditions, and comparing the results with those for mixtures of iso-octane and n-heptane.
Motor Octane Number (MON):
Another type of octane rating, called Motor Octane Number (MON), is determined at 900 rpm engine speed instead of the 600 rpm for RON. MON testing uses a similar test engine to that used in RON testing, but with a preheated fuel mixture, higher engine speed, and variable ignition timing to further stress the fuel's knock resistance. Depending on the composition of the fuel, the MON of a modern pump gasoline will be about 8 to 12 octane lower than the RON, but there is no direct link between RON and MON. Pump gasoline specifications typically require both a minimum RON and a minimum MON.
Anti-Knock Index (AKI) or (R+M)/2:
In most countries, including Australia, New Zealand and all of those in Europe, the "headline" octane rating shown on the pump is the RON, but in Canada, the United States, Brazil, and some other countries, the headline number is the average of the RON and the MON, called the Anti-Knock Index (AKI), and often written on pumps as (R+M)/2). It may also sometimes be called the Posted Octane Number (PON).
Difference between RON, MON, and AKI:
Because of the 8 to 12 octane number difference between RON and MON noted above, the AKI shown in Canada and the United States is 4 to 6 octane numbers lower than elsewhere in the world for the same fuel. This difference between RON and MON is known as the fuel's Sensitivity, and is not typically published for those countries that use the Anti-Knock Index labelling system."
I hope you can understand that what matters is the AKI of the fuel because a high RON rate with much lower MON will mean a lower AKI and less timing pull available.
The octane booster discussion started with Dave sharing his personal experience:
Little bit off topic here guys but just want to mention something another member on here brought to my attention...
NF Octane Booster
It's a South African product and it claims to increase your RON by up to 6 points (if you used a full bottle in one tank). Initially I presumed that was just marketing bullsh*t and couldn't possibly be true. But, I was keen to give it a try all the same as any increase in Octane will help avoid knock/detonation/pre ignition whatever you like to call it.
Holy sh*tballs. This stuff has blown me away!! I've a simple set up being just stage 1.5 on a K03. There's been a HUGE hike in midrange punch since I've started using it. Was talking to my tuner and he was confirming he's seen big hikes on the rollers for cars running this stuff. Can't wait to get mine back on the rollers so I can quantify the difference it's made.
Anyways, just thought it might be of interest to some of you guys looking to get the most from your setup
Cheers,
Dave
So I've ordered these from Roger Clark Motorsport:
19-20 Brindley Road
Leicester United Kingdom United Kingdom
Suburb: Hinckley
Phone: +44-1455-610728
http://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/store/category/154-lubricants-consumables? (http://rogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk/store/category/154-lubricants-consumables?)
NF Nitrous Formula Octane Booster 300 ml - 6 Pack
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Frogerclarkmotorsport.co.uk%2Fuploads%2Fproducts%2Fnullx800%2F2136569893.jpg&hash=cbedba86570de46fa330922a98d433d7f89e8f47)
I've contacted the dyno owner where my car was tuned and he's also curious to know the difference. I'm also going to add a VWR intake but preferably just after doing a couple of runs with the booster to see what I get with the current VWR/ITG panel filter. :smiley:
I received the 6 pack yesterday. :smiley:
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As long as there's additional timing request in the map (therefore a small amount of CF) then it should make a decent difference.
That said, to mix it in to the quantities needed to provide a decent anti-knock improvement, it is going to be VERY expensive to run. 1 bottle treats 60 litres of fuel (so a full tank) which means you are looking at an extra £15 per tank of fuel to run this stuff! Crazy money unless you drive WOT all the time. 75% of my cars use is as a family car, so running this stuff would be a total waste
My opinion - run a WMI kit unless we suddenly start to find E85 at the pumps on a regular basis. One off cost of WMI, but then cheap as chips as its only injected when needed. I go through less than 25 litres a year (about £25 worth) & 6,000 miles
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I'm planning to only use this booster on the tank before going to a track day and on the tank used during the track day. For daily driving I have more than enough power. Using this everyday would be crazy money, yes. :smiley:
A WMI system isn't legal to use so I prefer to try to improve the output without changing much the engine bay. Even the VWR intake isn't legal but might not call much attention and some authorities don't mind since it's a closed intake. :innocent:
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Ah I didnt realise there were legal issues for you to consider
On a track day this will help massively. The biggest killer of power is heat and this should help massively with the increased timing pull/knock you would see after several hard laps of a track as long as it 'does what it says on the tin'.
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I've seen the oil temp reach 125ºC on the last track day. Intake temps were almost 40ºC at the end of the long straight at 230 km/h (~143 mph) but after braking they would decrease to around 30ºC rapidly. The air temp was around 25ºC.
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As long as there's additional timing request in the map (therefore a small amount of CF) then it should make a decent difference.
That said, to mix it in to the quantities needed to provide a decent anti-knock improvement, it is going to be VERY expensive to run. 1 bottle treats 60 litres of fuel (so a full tank) which means you are looking at an extra £15 per tank of fuel to run this stuff! Crazy money unless you drive WOT all the time. 75% of my cars use is as a family car, so running this stuff would be a total waste
My opinion - run a WMI kit unless we suddenly start to find E85 at the pumps on a regular basis. One off cost of WMI, but then cheap as chips as its only injected when needed. I go through less than 25 litres a year (about £25 worth) & 6,000 miles
I was thinking the same. That is one expensive website! £25 for a magnetic sump plug :surprised:
Anyway, looking forward to seeing the results of this experiment, and the VWR intake :smiley:
I have E85 at my local Morrisons, but the pump is painfully slow (about litre a minute!) and the ECU will need a tune to use it....and bigger injectors. I could try a blend though. Say 80-20 petrol-E85. I tried that blend with my old VR6 turbo and the mid and top ends were definitely a bit fruitier. I had a standalone on that engine so I could adjust the timing and AFR on the fly.
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I used to run this stuff on my old subaru, which was heavily modified. You don't need to use a whole bottle per tank of fuel, but I cant remember the mix ratio we used to use.
As said WMI will give better results on hot climates though.
Fish
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Personally I've found this stuff great.
But it's very important to remember we only get rubbish 95RON fuel here in Ireland so as my tuner was reminding me the GTI ecu will pull timing on Irish fuel.
I've a stage one map with a 3in TBE and 3in 200 cell cat, A Ramair oversize intake and a DV+ When I first NF octane booster I noticed a big hike in midrange punch. I was truly surprised :laugh:
It's probably just the shift from circa 95RON to circa 98RON. The manufacturer claims 6RON for a full bottle added to 60ltrs.
I add half a bottle to 60ltrs. So {if the manufacturer can be trusted} that should be about a 3RON increase for me.
Anyways.... I would normally be highly sceptical of this kind of product.... But I can honestly say I was hugely surprised by the effect it had on my car.
Anybody else using it and noticed any improvements??
Cheers,
Dave
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Personally I've found this stuff great.
But it's very important to remember we only get rubbish 95RON fuel here in Ireland so as my tuner was reminding me the GTI ecu will pull timing on Irish fuel.
I've a stage one map with a 3in TBE and 3in 200 cell cat, A Ramair oversize intake and a DV+ When I first NF octane booster I noticed a big hike in midrange punch. I was truly surprised :laugh:
It's probably just the shift from circa 95RON to circa 98RON. The manufacturer claims 6RON for a full bottle added to 60ltrs.
I add half a bottle to 60ltrs. So {if the manufacturer can be trusted} that should be about a 3RON increase for me.
Anyways.... I would normally be highly sceptical of this kind of product.... But I can honestly say I was hugely surprised by the effect it had on my car.
Anybody else using it and noticed any improvements??
Cheers,
Dave
We notice a similar thing in England if you switch from 95 to 99 V Power. The mid and top ends both improve quite a lot! At least you have found a solution for Ireland's lack of decent fuel :happy2:
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Personally I've found this stuff great.
But it's very important to remember we only get rubbish 95RON fuel here in Ireland so as my tuner was reminding me the GTI ecu will pull timing on Irish fuel.
I've a stage one map with a 3in TBE and 3in 200 cell cat, A Ramair oversize intake and a DV+ When I first NF octane booster I noticed a big hike in midrange punch. I was truly surprised :laugh:
It's probably just the shift from circa 95RON to circa 98RON. The manufacturer claims 6RON for a full bottle added to 60ltrs.
I add half a bottle to 60ltrs. So {if the manufacturer can be trusted} that should be about a 3RON increase for me.
Anyways.... I would normally be highly sceptical of this kind of product.... But I can honestly say I was hugely surprised by the effect it had on my car.
Anybody else using it and noticed any improvements??
Cheers,
Dave
We notice a similar thing in England if you switch from 95 to 99 V Power. The mid and top ends both improve quite a lot! At least you have found a solution for Ireland's lack of decent fuel :happy2:
Worth trying with 99 Ron and this octane booster. Could be a solution for those who dont want to run meth
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I'm going to be doing a road trip around the west coast and the top of Scotland and I'm pretty sure that it'll only be 95RON available but my car is APR tuned to 98RON. Hopefully half a bottle per tank should do the job to keep the RON count up as it will be getting its head kicked in and I don't want to be giving it a kicking if it's only running 95RON
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We notice a similar thing in England if you switch from 95 to 99 V Power. The mid and top ends both improve quite a lot! At least you have found a solution for Ireland's lack of decent fuel :happy2:
Yeah, it's really frustrating! You used to be able to buy 98 Ron quite easily. And Maxol (for a while) sold a fuel that was 10% ethanol.
But it's all gone now! All you can get is poxy 95 everywhere.
So, I'm chuffed with the booster, even if it is a bit pricey!
I'm going to be doing a road trip around the west coast and the top of Scotland and I'm pretty sure that it'll only be 95RON available but my car is APR tuned to 98RON. Hopefully half a bottle per tank should do the job to keep the RON count up as it will be getting its head kicked in and I don't want to be giving it a kicking if it's only running 95RON
Smash it's teeth in and report back buddy :happy2:
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Just been looking on Ebay. there is quite a few alternatives, brand wise. may give it a try
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I buy this the NF in bottles of 5 from this crowd. Lovely lady called Cheryl handles the shipping etc. She's great to deal with.
I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has a good (or bad) experience with it :happy2:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172359017167
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http://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-114253-vp-madditive-power-boost.aspx
I tried this and noticed a slight increase in performance but actually started to get a slightly better MPG response on my car (I always use momentum or v power on my car but don't use it on track - just normal city driving)
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I went to test the octane booster today. I added about 4 ml of it for each liter of petrol, BP Ultimate 98 RON.
It measured 335,5 CV, so about +5 CV compared to last year in January, at around 13ºC of ambient temp and 27ºC of intake temp.
The only graph I got today by mistake was from when I went to get the DSG tuned last July (more clamping pressure, faster shifting, no kick down on Manual mode, no auto upshift on Manual mode after hiting the rev limiter, rev limit to 7.000 rpm). Weirdly it made more power than what it measured in January. :confused:
The tuner will send me the correct graph later or I'll get it when I return there after fitting the VWR intake and GFB engine pulley. :smiley:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fmm475%2FShoduchi%2FMB_Power_2.png&hash=944b0ccb999f9d0cc143a2fff15b592e4f06e175)
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I went to test the octane booster today. I added about 4 ml of it for each litre of petrol, BP Ultimate 98 RON.
It measured 335,5 CV, so about +5 CV compared to last year in January, at around 13ºC of ambient temp and 27ºC of intake temp.
The only graph I got today by mistake was from when I went to get the DSG tuned last July (more clamping pressure, faster shifting, no kick down on Manual mode, no auto upshift on Manual mode after hiting the rev limiter, rev limit to 7.000 rpm). Weirdly it made more power than what it measured in January. :confused:
The tuner will send me the correct graph later or I'll get it when I return there after fitting the VWR intake and GFB engine pulley. :smiley:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fmm475%2FShoduchi%2FMB_Power_2.png&hash=944b0ccb999f9d0cc143a2fff15b592e4f06e175)
Did it actually feel any stronger with the octane booster?
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Nothing really noticeable on my but dyno, unfortunately. :sad1:
The boost control worked better today, so the torque spike was smaller. Other than that, on today's dyno the line was just marginally higher.
On my next test I'll up the dosage to 5 ml per liter, the maximum recommended.
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Nothing really noticeable on my but dyno, unfortunately. :sad1:
The boost control worked better today, so the torque spike was smaller. Other than that, on today's dyno the line was just marginally higher.
On my next test I'll up the dosage to 5 ml per liter, the maximum recommended.
I doubt 1ml extra would equate to any tangible difference if 4ml per litre doesn't. But I'll look forward to your findings all the same.
The science behind it seems good; there should be some benefit. Whether that simply means you get better knock protection rather than a proven increase in power across the revs, I'd imagine for certain cars with certain harware and map configurations this could be useful.
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Indeed mine is mapped very classically, AFAIK. It makes 1,5 bar of peak boost and 1,4 bar of stable boost. So I really don't know what's the best output with 1,4 bar of boost to compare with. I've seen lots of examples of Stage 2+ Ed. 30 making more boost to reach ~370 BHP. When I get the intake fitted mine will have the full Stage 2+ hardware setup. :thinking:
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Timing advance has a huge impact on peak numbers, and whether the current map will take advantage of the extra octane. Thorw as much of this stuff in a car with a conservative timing map and you'll see no benefit..... until heat becomes a factor i.e. after hard driving/track use etc.
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Nothing really noticeable on my but dyno, unfortunately. :sad1:
So sorry to hear this Shoduci :sad1:
I really am wondering why it made such a difference on my car?
I think it's the very poor quality of our Irish fuel that makes the booster shine.
For people living in the UK or Portugal or anywhere where you can buy decent fuel maybe this booster is not so useful/effective?
Also as Dan says, timing wise my car was crying out for more octane. You guys are probably closer to optimum with 98-99RON straight out of the petrol station
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Shoduchi is in the 'diminishing returns' area with his car. He's already +100hp over standard and without turning the boost up a lot more, he's not going to get a lot more from it, so octane booster won't make a lot of difference for him :smiley:
330 currently, +5hp gain is 1.5%. At that level, to actually 'feel' a difference you need at least +10% gain :smiley:
It probably worked for you as your fuel isn't great to begin with, so it's probably performing like it would in England running 99 V Power :smiley:
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Timing advance has a huge impact on peak numbers, and whether the current map will take advantage of the extra octane. Thorw as much of this stuff in a car with a conservative timing map and you'll see no benefit..... until heat becomes a factor i.e. after hard driving/track use etc.
I asked this to the dyno owner but he isn't the tuner so he didn't know exactly how much timing advance the map has included. It's something I'll try to know when I talk with the tuner again.
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It probably worked for you as your fuel isn't great to begin with, so it's probably performing like it would in England running 99 V Power :smiley:
Exactly mate :happy2: I think that is 100% correct :smiley:
Not sure if I mentioned it before but; when I had my car dyno'd before it was mapped it only made 184hp and 200ft/lb.
It's a solid car. Had 68k on the clock at the time. Very well maintained. It also had new oil, air filter, coils, spark plugs, cam follower etc. etc. before it went for mapping. So there was no good reason for it to be 16hp down on factory quoted power.
After the map it "only" made 224hp and 240ft/lb.
You would expect a similar car in the UK to be making a reliable 200hp before tuning and maybe 240-250hp with a stage 1 Map.
I think a big part of the issue with my particular car is our fuel. Once I added the octane booster the car came alive!
I reckon it's probably somewhere closer to 240hp now. Which of course is very noticeable on the butt Dyno if coming from 224hp.
My tuner is a good friend and collaborator with Niki Gower and I believe they share mapping strategies. So, as mentioned by Dan, I believe my car was crying out for octane to optimise the map installed on it.
I'll probably end up being Cheryl's best customer until some brave fuel supplier in Ireland comes back the the market with decent fuel.
Our garages now have no signs on the pump (they used to) telling you what octane you're buying.
For all I know its probably 93 or 91RON fresh off the boat from the USA :smiley: :laugh: :smiley:
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Timing advance has a huge impact on peak numbers, and whether the current map will take advantage of the extra octane. Thorw as much of this stuff in a car with a conservative timing map and you'll see no benefit..... until heat becomes a factor i.e. after hard driving/track use etc.
I asked this to the dyno owner but he isn't the tuner so he didn't know exactly how much timing advance the map has included. It's something I'll try to know when I talk with the tuner again.
Good luck with this buddy :happy2:
I'm hoping you will see a bit more benefit after talking to your tuner.
I feel a bit bad about recommending the stuff to you if it doesn't really work! As I know it's expensive!
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Shoduchi is in the 'diminishing returns' area with his car. He's already +100hp over standard and without turning the boost up a lot more, he's not going to get a lot more from it, so octane booster won't make a lot of difference for him :smiley:
330 currently, +5hp gain is 1.5%. At that level, to actually 'feel' a difference you need at least +10% gain :smiley:
It probably worked for you as your fuel isn't great to begin with, so it's probably performing like it would in England running 99 V Power :smiley:
For my surprise, the tuner's and the dyno owner's my engine makes consistently at least 270 CV with the factory map. Increasing the boost to 1,4 bar and the fuelling accordingly it makes 330 CV.
I just don't know what is limiting or if anything is limiting the output at the moment. After fitting the CAI I'll know if the OEM airbox was a limiting factor and how much. :smiley:
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Timing advance has a huge impact on peak numbers, and whether the current map will take advantage of the extra octane. Thorw as much of this stuff in a car with a conservative timing map and you'll see no benefit..... until heat becomes a factor i.e. after hard driving/track use etc.
I asked this to the dyno owner but he isn't the tuner so he didn't know exactly how much timing advance the map has included. It's something I'll try to know when I talk with the tuner again.
Good luck with this buddy :happy2:
I'm hoping you will see a bit more benefit after talking to your tuner.
I feel a bit bad about recommending the stuff to you if it doesn't really work! As I know it's expensive!
Thanks buddy! We're both testing if our petrol is limiting our engine's output. I know my tune was made for petrol 98 RON and that my tuner can make the tune more aggressive if I use racing fuel with an higher octane level. I'm just checking if it worth using it for track days and how much is the benefit. :smiley:
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It probably worked for you as your fuel isn't great to begin with, so it's probably performing like it would in England running 99 V Power :smiley:
Exactly mate :happy2: I think that is 100% correct :smiley:
Not sure if I mentioned it before but; when I had my car dyno'd before it was mapped it only made 184hp and 200ft/lb.
It's a solid car. Had 68k on the clock at the time. Very well maintained. It also had new oil, air filter, coils, spark plugs, cam follower etc. etc. before it went for mapping. So there was no good reason for it to be 16hp down on factory quoted power.
After the map it "only" made 224hp and 240ft/lb.
You would expect a similar car in the UK to be making a reliable 200hp before tuning and maybe 240-250hp with a stage 1 Map.
I think a big part of the issue with my particular car is our fuel. Once I added the octane booster the car came alive!
I reckon it's probably somewhere closer to 240hp now. Which of course is very noticeable on the butt Dyno if coming from 224hp.
My tuner is a good friend and collaborator with Niki Gower and I believe they share mapping strategies. So, as mentioned by Dan, I believe my car was crying out for octane to optimise the map installed on it.
I'll probably end up being Cheryl's best customer until some brave fuel supplier in Ireland comes back the the market with decent fuel.
Our garages now have no signs on the pump (they used to) telling you what octane you're buying.
For all I know its probably 93 or 91RON fresh off the boat from the USA :smiley: :laugh: :smiley:
I wonder what fuel VW's 200hp is based on? Must be the 98RON they specify on the fuel flap I guess! It should really make 200 minimum on the lowest RON shown in the user manual or the flap (95), but this is the world we live in. Small print and lots of 'up to' services :grin:
I think American fuel is rated a bit differently to ours. There's RON, PON and MON. We use RON, they use MON I think. When I was in the states I got talking to someone about it and their 93 is equivalent to our 97, or something along those lines. They did used to have utter garbage fuel, but it's not as bad as it used to be! They had V Power at the pumps last time I was there :happy2:
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Timing advance has a huge impact on peak numbers, and whether the current map will take advantage of the extra octane. Thorw as much of this stuff in a car with a conservative timing map and you'll see no benefit..... until heat becomes a factor i.e. after hard driving/track use etc.
This is pretty much the bottom line. For the majority of cars (mapped to 97-99) we won't feel a benefit.
It's that 105 map we want.
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Shoduchi is in the 'diminishing returns' area with his car. He's already +100hp over standard and without turning the boost up a lot more, he's not going to get a lot more from it, so octane booster won't make a lot of difference for him :smiley:
330 currently, +5hp gain is 1.5%. At that level, to actually 'feel' a difference you need at least +10% gain :smiley:
It probably worked for you as your fuel isn't great to begin with, so it's probably performing like it would in England running 99 V Power :smiley:
For my surprise, the tuner's and the dyno owner's my engine makes consistently at least 270 CV with the factory map. Increasing the boost to 1,4 bar and the fuelling accordingly it makes 330 CV.
I just don't know what is limiting or if anything is limiting the output at the moment. After fitting the CAI I'll know if the OEM airbox was a limiting factor and how much. :smiley:
Interesting! Mine made exactly 230hp with the factory map with V Power 99 RON :smiley: Mine makes 300hp with 1.4 bar. That was when it was 100% standard, though. Just software. Is CV the same as PS?
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Timing advance has a huge impact on peak numbers, and whether the current map will take advantage of the extra octane. Thorw as much of this stuff in a car with a conservative timing map and you'll see no benefit..... until heat becomes a factor i.e. after hard driving/track use etc.
This is pretty much the bottom line. For the majority of cars (mapped to 97-99) we won't feel a benefit.
It's that 105 map we want.
Ufortunately it's not quite a simple as piling on advance. Flamefront propagation gets to a point where all the timing in the world makes bugger all difference. It's why tuners tend to add advance until it starts to hurt power, then back it off a few degrees for safety. Running 105 octane specific maps, imo, is a daft idea and probably pointless without altering the combustion characteristics to make it worthwhile.
A proper K thermocouple EGT probe is needed for accurate timing measurements too because both too little, and too much, timing can both increase EGTs.
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Timing advance has a huge impact on peak numbers, and whether the current map will take advantage of the extra octane. Thorw as much of this stuff in a car with a conservative timing map and you'll see no benefit..... until heat becomes a factor i.e. after hard driving/track use etc.
This is pretty much the bottom line. For the majority of cars (mapped to 97-99) we won't feel a benefit.
It's that 105 map we want.
Ufortunately it's not quite a simple as piling on advance. Flamefront propagation gets to a point where all the timing in the world makes bugger all difference. It's why tuners tend to add advance until it starts to hurt power, then back it off a few degrees for safety. Running 105 octane specific maps, imo, is a daft idea and probably pointless without altering the combustion characteristics to make it worthwhile.
A proper K thermocouple EGT probe is needed for accurate timing measurements too because too little and too much timing can both increase EGTs.
Naturally there's more to it than just increasing the advance. But look at water-meth. Generally the same principles apply. Given the time for development I wouldn't bet against the top tuners being able to create a map for 105 that bumped the curve.
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Shoduchi is in the 'diminishing returns' area with his car. He's already +100hp over standard and without turning the boost up a lot more, he's not going to get a lot more from it, so octane booster won't make a lot of difference for him :smiley:
330 currently, +5hp gain is 1.5%. At that level, to actually 'feel' a difference you need at least +10% gain :smiley:
It probably worked for you as your fuel isn't great to begin with, so it's probably performing like it would in England running 99 V Power :smiley:
For my surprise, the tuner's and the dyno owner's my engine makes consistently at least 270 CV with the factory map. Increasing the boost to 1,4 bar and the fuelling accordingly it makes 330 CV.
I just don't know what is limiting or if anything is limiting the output at the moment. After fitting the CAI I'll know if the OEM airbox was a limiting factor and how much. :smiley:
Interesting! Mine made exactly 230hp with the factory map with V Power 99 RON :smiley: Mine makes 300hp with 1.4 bar. That was when it was 100% standard, though. Just software. Is CV the same as PS?
Yes, AFAIK PS (Pferdestärke) is the German unit that measures the same as CV (Cheval vapeur), that is a French unit (and same as HP in metric units).
I think the Loba HPFP and the IC were what benefited more the engine output. With the TBE the engine measured 243 CV in an hot day but also in a different dyno (MAHA LPS3000). Currently it's being dyno'd in a BAPRO dyno.
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Timing advance has a huge impact on peak numbers, and whether the current map will take advantage of the extra octane. Thorw as much of this stuff in a car with a conservative timing map and you'll see no benefit..... until heat becomes a factor i.e. after hard driving/track use etc.
This is pretty much the bottom line. For the majority of cars (mapped to 97-99) we won't feel a benefit.
It's that 105 map we want.
Ufortunately it's not quite a simple as piling on advance. Flamefront propagation gets to a point where all the timing in the world makes bugger all difference. It's why tuners tend to add advance until it starts to hurt power, then back it off a few degrees for safety. Running 105 octane specific maps, imo, is a daft idea and probably pointless without altering the combustion characteristics to make it worthwhile.
A proper K thermocouple EGT probe is needed for accurate timing measurements too because too little and too much timing can both increase EGTs.
Naturally there's more to it than just increasing the advance. But look at water-meth. Generally the same principles apply. Given the time for development I wouldn't bet against the top tuners being able to create a map for 105 that bumped the curve.
Indeed, and I didn't mean to come across all black & white and negative about it :smiley:
I remember from my old tuning days playing around with timing, E85, meth injection, EGT tuning etc etc. It was a very steep and interesting learning curve.
When I had my VR6 turbo, it had terrible combustion chambers. Pocketed pistons that weren't flat and gave a triangle shaped combustion chamber, if that makes sense. With such a rubbish squish area, and CR reduced to 8.5:1, a LOT of timing helps because the burn is so slow. I was running 40 deg BTDC at high speed cruise area of the map and 25 deg in boost, increasing to 28 - 30 approaching red line.
Then I played with tuning an R32 engine, which is a whole different kettle of fish. VW changed the pistons to be flat and the combustion chamber was in the head, rather than the piston bowl. This MASSIVELY improved the squish area and therefore the burn speed, not to mention 11.3:1 compression. I could only run about 18 degrees timing at WOT around 2500rpm where the intake tuning kicks in. Even the factory R32 map runs super close to knock all the time, even with 99ron.
It's a similar story with the TFSi. You don't need a lot of timing to make good numbers and they also run into det as standard if you pull up the logs a hot summer's day. TFSi pistons are also notched for valve clearance. Get a load of carbon build up on the edges of these notches and it can create a 'hot spot' that pre-ignites the fuel, so that's something to be wary of when tuning with timing. This is why companies like Toyota are investigating alternative ways to detect knock with modern high compression, small turbo engines because old fashioned knock 'microphones' can't react quick enough, such is the fast rate of torque delivery.
Meth/Water and E85 reduce the combustion temps, but burns slower than petrol, hence the need for more timing, but the two combined does indeed make good power!
Anyway, a bit of boring waffle waffle there, but yeah, timing is great if the engine wants it but some tuners go too far with it and leave no room for safety. I always tune to the lowest quality fuel available and live with the comparatively small reduction in power, but I keep the timing high at cruise speeds to keep EGTs down. I like a simple life, so I don't bother with fuel specific switchable maps. Get in, turn key, drive :smiley:
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Shoduchi is in the 'diminishing returns' area with his car. He's already +100hp over standard and without turning the boost up a lot more, he's not going to get a lot more from it, so octane booster won't make a lot of difference for him :smiley:
330 currently, +5hp gain is 1.5%. At that level, to actually 'feel' a difference you need at least +10% gain :smiley:
It probably worked for you as your fuel isn't great to begin with, so it's probably performing like it would in England running 99 V Power :smiley:
For my surprise, the tuner's and the dyno owner's my engine makes consistently at least 270 CV with the factory map. Increasing the boost to 1,4 bar and the fuelling accordingly it makes 330 CV.
I just don't know what is limiting or if anything is limiting the output at the moment. After fitting the CAI I'll know if the OEM airbox was a limiting factor and how much. :smiley:
Interesting! Mine made exactly 230hp with the factory map with V Power 99 RON :smiley: Mine makes 300hp with 1.4 bar. That was when it was 100% standard, though. Just software. Is CV the same as PS?
Yes, AFAIK PS (Pferdestärke) is the German unit that measures the same as CV (Cheval vapeur), that is a French unit (and same as HP in metric units).
I think the Loba HPFP and the IC were what benefited more the engine output. With the TBE the engine measured 243 CV in an hot day but also in a different dyno (MAHA LPS3000). Currently it's being dyno'd in a BAPRO dyno.
Thanks mate :smiley:
Mine wouldn't get even past 280hp without a Loba! Since the stage 1 map I've added the APR downpipe and the S3 intercooler, so I don't know what it's making currently. It doesn't feel any faster to my butt. Actually slower at some rpms / loads to be honest!
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You didn't come across at all negatively @Pudding
It's a really interesting discussion. The more I think about it the more questions I end up with!
I think ultimately it's going to be a trade-off, just like tuning in general. It's just a case of working closer to the limit of a safe 'envelope' than usual.
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You didn't come across at all negatively @Pudding (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733)
It's a really interesting discussion. The more I think about it the more questions I end up with!
I think ultimately it's going to be a trade-off, just like tuning in general. It's just a case of working closer to the limit of a safe 'envelope' than usual.
The safer you tend to be with daily drivers :smiley: Especially after you've wrecked a couple of engines from 'experimenting' along the way :grin:
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Went today to get the car tested on the dyno again after fitting the VWR intake and the Go Fast Bits lightweight crank pulley.
Now it measured 355,6 CV and 337 lbft, so about +20 CV and the same torque compared to last time, at 15ºC of ambient temp and 27ºC of intake temp. :pomppomp:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fmm475%2FShoduchi%2F4._MB_Power_3.jpg&hash=912ea8b2599229bd77cf178e2f980d36505721d1)
The intake really made a good difference, not just on the butt dyno. :grin:
Not sure what was the contribution of the lightweight crank pulley to the final result.