MK5 Golf GTI

All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: geordie56 on May 27, 2010, 06:11:42 pm

Title: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: geordie56 on May 27, 2010, 06:11:42 pm
I am fitting my TT arms this weekend along with WALK and just want to know peoples experiance with best settings for the adjustment of the camber? what are you using and what is best for tyre wear etc...? Cheers.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: RedRobin on May 27, 2010, 06:29:03 pm
^^^^
WALK only effects (and improves) castor.

TT arms will introduce a very small but helpfull amount of camber and apparently has no adverse effect on uneven tyre wear.

HTH  :happy2:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Janner_Sy on May 27, 2010, 06:42:45 pm
i very much doubt that winding the TT arms to their maximum egative camber will have a bad effect on the tyre wear.  on a standard car they will allow you to reach 1.5Degree negative camber(1 degree std iirc).  on a lowered car that will increase slightly due to the geometry changes of the suspension.

this guy has them on his so you could always ask him if you wanted.
http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?71940-TT-suspension-arms-fitted-to-my-A3!!!&highlight=tt+lower+arms
most of the cars on track days that want agressive settings, run 3 degrees or more
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: jabbalad on May 28, 2010, 09:32:25 am
I run 3 degrees on mine up front, i dont really get any odd tyre wear, they wear really flat actually.... but then it does get used fairly hard  :pomppomp:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: RedRobin on May 28, 2010, 10:00:45 am
^^^^
I don't think yours is a good example of everyday use, jabba  :grin:  :happy2:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: jabbalad on May 28, 2010, 10:03:43 am
Actually i have done 10,000 miles since december, and its been at those settings ever since i first fitted the suspension back in may last year! :laugh: it is still my everyday car but dont know how i have done that many miles tho!! haha
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Top Cat on May 28, 2010, 10:26:31 am
I have got somewhere around 2 degrees on mine and i found the best way to keep tyre wear even is just go round corners faster than you would straights.  :laugh:  works for me.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: RedRobin on May 28, 2010, 10:43:21 am
^^^^
This isn't helping me delay spending on TT wishbones!  :P  :laugh:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: jabbalad on May 28, 2010, 12:35:34 pm
^^^^
This isn't helping me delay spending on TT wishbones!  :P  :laugh:


You know you want to  :grin:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Janner_Sy on May 28, 2010, 12:36:12 pm
what are you running mate.  top mounts i presume??
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: jabbalad on May 28, 2010, 12:47:48 pm
Yea KW top mounts and suspension set so the wishbones are level, just need to make some adapters to drop the track rods so there level with the wishbones  :smiley:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Janner_Sy on May 28, 2010, 12:50:36 pm
Yea KW top mounts and suspension set so the wishbones are level, just need to make some adapters to drop the track rods so there level with the wishbones  :smiley:

doesnt the whiteline bumpsteer kit change the angle of the track rod ends??
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: jabbalad on May 28, 2010, 12:59:26 pm
Yea KW top mounts and suspension set so the wishbones are level, just need to make some adapters to drop the track rods so there level with the wishbones  :smiley:

doesnt the whiteline bumpsteer kit change the angle of the track rod ends??

Yea but try finding them! :sad1:
I tryed everywhere, but they all said they were on back order with no production date, whiteline themselves didnt seem to know they even made them  :confused:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: laurent.d on May 28, 2010, 01:04:07 pm
I have more than 2° of negative camber at the front  :happy2:  thanks to Morego wishbones and a kind of WALK kit but from VWR.
I have got even tyre wear with 80% of highway 20% of bake twisty road and about 30 Nürburgring laps.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: geordie56 on May 28, 2010, 07:47:22 pm
Spot on fellas cheers for your help once again. I shall let you know how i go on over the weekend i am fitting the wishbones, WALK kit and poly bushes , H&R Front and Rear ARBs, Neuspeed Drop Links and VWR lower engine mount.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Janner_Sy on May 28, 2010, 08:14:38 pm
nice setup you will have there.  what suspension are you running or is i standard??

my previous setup was coilovers, eibach ARBs and walk and that was very good.  this time though i plan to go for a whiteline rear ARB, walk, TT lower arms, vwr lower mount, and eventually a LSD.  suspension will remain standard for now
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: geordie56 on May 29, 2010, 11:30:39 am
I am running H&R springs at the minute, but am changing to bilstein B16s i think at some point. I am planning on a Quaiffe LSD and spoke to matt at VWR but they are in short supply so i am waiting to here from him regarding stock replenishes.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Janner_Sy on May 29, 2010, 06:19:53 pm
hows the new setup then, it was bing fitted today asnt it??. would like to know wha camber settings they give you in the end :happy2:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: geordie56 on May 29, 2010, 06:32:45 pm
Im fitting it all tommorow so ill let you know then. Im then booking it in for a geo alignment at Awesome.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Janner_Sy on May 29, 2010, 07:50:51 pm
this was in danishes thread

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FTT_lower_control_arms.jpg&hash=3365f0211369dbf0c8fa7559728214c372a3cf66)

Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Tfsi_Mike on May 29, 2010, 07:53:33 pm
^^^^
This isn't helping me delay spending on TT wishbones!  :P  :laugh:

Me neither haha  :sad1:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: KleinAberFein on October 15, 2010, 03:48:13 pm
this was in danishes thread

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FTT_lower_control_arms.jpg&hash=3365f0211369dbf0c8fa7559728214c372a3cf66)



This is very interesting to see. That the TT control arm has a higher roll center than the stock A3 arm. I have seen that whiteline has roll center kits for Evo and Subaru. That is very nice that this feature is available from a OEM part. I am thinking this part is absolut necessary for any lowered car. The more you lower a car, the lower this roll center is and the more roll a car will have. So if I use the TT arm I can lower my car and it can still handle well. Wunderbar! The problem I have seen in Germany is people like to lower their cars 40-50mm! And they think the car still handles well. But they are wrong, they have more roll and the car understeers because the outside wheel is in positive camber in the turn because the control arm is already past horizontal.

Do you get wider front track when use these arms?
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: Janner_Sy on October 15, 2010, 06:26:17 pm
i believe so but not by to much.  you are limited by the length of the drive shafts tbh.  a few guys are looking into scirrocco alloy hubs for the lower rotating mass and wider track
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: KleinAberFein on October 16, 2010, 10:42:08 am
i believe so but not by to much.  you are limited by the length of the drive shafts tbh.  a few guys are looking into scirrocco alloy hubs for the lower rotating mass and wider track

Wow, we can have a real Frankenstein car then with all these different parts!
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: vRSAlex on October 16, 2010, 07:29:54 pm
The thing you have to remember is you also need the hubs from the TT to put the ball joint lower and keep the wishbone as level as possible.  I am currently running the TT wishbones with the standard hubs and the wishbone is pointing up slightly which isnt great for the handling.

The S3/Cupra hubs seem to be different to the TT hubs and they dont lower the ball joint.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: fuscobal on October 19, 2010, 07:36:57 pm
I've got PSS16 lowered about 1" from stock wich isn't much at all and the TT-arms gave me -2.3deg wich gave me great results on my last track day at Hungaroring. Problem is, I also switched to semi-slicks so I can't tell how much of the improvement came from the tires and how much from the arms !
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: KleinAberFein on October 25, 2010, 11:45:13 am
I've got PSS16 lowered about 1" from stock wich isn't much at all and the TT-arms gave me -2.3deg wich gave me great results on my last track day at Hungaroring. Problem is, I also switched to semi-slicks so I can't tell how much of the improvement came from the tires and how much from the arms !

If you have your track tires on different wheels, maybe next time bring your street wheels and time some laps with those. I have found it is nice to feel and know what modifications have what effekt. I have usually only modified a small bit at a time on my previous car. Only so can see what the difference was. I have friends who modify so much at once. Car is handling nice but they do not know what part affects what thing. I think it is a lost chance to learn about the suspension and the modification.

What semi-slicks did you have? What were your tire pressure? Have you drive semi-slick tire before?
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: RedRobin on October 25, 2010, 12:52:12 pm

I have found it is nice to feel and know what modifications have what effect. I have usually only modified a small bit at a time on my previous car. Only so can see what the difference was. I have friends who modify so much at once. Car is handling nice but they do not know what part affects what thing. I think it is a lost chance to learn about the suspension and the modification.


....I wholeheartedly agree. It's very helpful to feel and so understand what's going on.  :happy2:

Also, if you happen to get a problem it's easier to find it.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: fuscobal on October 25, 2010, 04:00:07 pm
I had the street tires on the previous session but they were GY asymmetric on 235/35/19 . The semislicks are Kumho V70a K90 (hard compound). The only other mod I did was the TT arms wich gave me more cmaber and the time difference was huge : from 2'29" to 2'18" (11 seconds faster) ! The tire pressures were about 2.2-2.3 bar (cold pressures) ! In the first session, they went up to 3.2 bar because over the night there were close to 0 deg celsius and then I warmed them up suddenly. I set them again to 2.2-2.3bar and they didn't go up again in the following sessions more than 2.4bar !...and no, I haven't used semi-slicks before !
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: KleinAberFein on October 26, 2010, 01:23:02 pm
I had the street tires on the previous session but they were GY asymmetric on 235/35/19 . The semislicks are Kumho V70a K90 (hard compound). The only other mod I did was the TT arms wich gave me more cmaber and the time difference was huge : from 2'29" to 2'18" (11 seconds faster) ! The tire pressures were about 2.2-2.3 bar (cold pressures) ! In the first session, they went up to 3.2 bar because over the night there were close to 0 deg celsius and then I warmed them up suddenly. I set them again to 2.2-2.3bar and they didn't go up again in the following sessions more than 2.4bar !...and no, I haven't used semi-slicks before !

So are you saying you tried the new arms with more camber with the Goodyear tires? Then you tried the semislicks? I am just trying to see what sort of time improvements you are having only from the more neg camber. Then see how much time is improved by using the slicks.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: fuscobal on October 26, 2010, 10:18:27 pm
Nope, I installed the arms at the same time with the semi-slicks so the 11 seconds come from both but I can't be sure how much from each !
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: KleinAberFein on October 27, 2010, 10:16:38 am
Nope, I installed the arms at the same time with the semi-slicks so the 11 seconds come from both but I can't be sure how much from each !

ah, thank you for the information. well at least we know what both can do for the car! though i would think if you are using the semi-slick, you have to use these arms because the semi is usually liking more negative camber because it has more grip and makes the car roll more. i think if you use semi slick on normal arm you are wearing out the outside  shoulder of tire?
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: danishmkvgti on October 28, 2010, 10:42:54 am
The thing you have to remember is you also need the hubs from the TT to put the ball joint lower and keep the wishbone as level as possible.  I am currently running the TT wishbones with the standard hubs and the wishbone is pointing up slightly which isnt great for the handling.

The S3/Cupra hubs seem to be different to the TT hubs and they dont lower the ball joint.

I have noticed this also, it's not possible to fit the TT control arm correctly to the ball joint due to the design of the S3 hub.

Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: jon-tfsi on October 29, 2010, 08:10:38 pm
The ball joints on the TT arms sit on the underside of the arm, but on the S3 arms the ball joint sits on the top. (think GTI is the same)

Here is a couple of pics - TT arms at the top

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fww123%2Fjon-tfsi%2FPA240303.jpg&hash=70018fbec43d0468a249f5a8c47c23af3ef72bd9)

(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fww123%2Fjon-tfsi%2FPA240302.jpg&hash=2db127d55caf5d50f588fedc6cf95592e6277a5c)

If you uprade to TT arms without changing anything else, the arms will look like they are at a slightly different angle, but in reality the angle from bush to ball joint (pivot points) will remain the same. If the TT arms look horizontal or marginally pointing up it might look bad, but the chances are the balljoint is stlill lower than pivot point on the bush . . . . if you catch my drift
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: danishmkvgti on October 29, 2010, 10:47:00 pm
You wouldn't happen to have pictures of the TT hubs compared to the S3 ones would you??   :smiley: 

 :popcornsoda:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: fuscobal on January 21, 2011, 05:17:12 pm
What's interesting is that on my last hungaroring session I had the ball joints installed wrong (on the top of the arm like the GTI, S3, Cupra one) and the car performed great ! I now have them installed properly and will see how it goes next track day in spring !
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: danishmkvgti on January 21, 2011, 08:44:48 pm
What's interesting is that on my last hungaroring session I had the ball joints installed wrong (on the top of the arm like the GTI, S3, Cupra one) and the car performed great ! I now have them installed properly and will see how it goes next track day in spring !

Fuscobal you haven't got the S3 svirwels/hubs do you??
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: rex on January 23, 2011, 02:36:09 pm
Tire wear is not a concern, with the TT arms, on the track. Without this upgrade I have a lot of tire wear on the outside of the tire. This is because when cornering I get positive camber. I currently have -1 degree of camber.
With the TT arms I should expect something around -2.5 (my guess). For GTI, the information I got from the manufacturer is that the minimum admitted camber is -2.15' (for the rear axle). So, up to that, I would not worry about tire wear.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: fuscobal on February 08, 2011, 01:13:27 pm
No Danish, I got the standard GTI hubs !
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: danishmkvgti on February 08, 2011, 02:25:44 pm
No Danish, I got the standard GTI hubs !

Thx, that also answered the question in the other tread  :happy2:  :drinking:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: the bruce on February 08, 2011, 02:40:45 pm
Folks, I'm still confused.  :laugh:

I have the S3 arms on my car and S3 swivels/hubs ready to fit.
Whiteline ALK is coming soon.
But I need some additional camber as well, - 2°20' should match
coming semi slicks. So what to do now?

- fitting S3 hubs and replacing the S3 arms with TT ones?
- fitting complete TT arms and hubs?
- fitting S3 hubs and forget all the camber issues?
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: rex on February 08, 2011, 02:57:14 pm
 :smiley: As you may have seen, everybody is confused.  :surprised:
I had the TT arms on my agenda and today I saw that they do not fit the same for everybody  :smiley:.

For fuscobal, with GTI hubs, the TT arms are working fine (as intended). Camber is -2.3'.
For danishmkvgti, this S3 hubs, the TT arms can not be installed correctly but they are ok the way they are.

I would definitely get the TT arms (and I will very soon). Since you bought the S3 hubs, I would use those. If I were you I would also sell the S3 arms.
Camber is crucial on the circuit and all cars have negative camber (more or less aggressive). Please look at WTCC pictures, Formula 1 pictures, Formula 3 pictures tc.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: the bruce on February 08, 2011, 03:44:36 pm
No doubt the proper camber is crucial on track.  :wink:

My Federal 595 RS-R will benefit from at least 2° and I will go for Direzza 03G
later this year, so camber gets even more important.

I would gladly change some other parts if necessary, but replacing the steering
rack will be a bit too expensive.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: laurent.d on February 08, 2011, 05:05:59 pm
If you want more négative camber, TT arms are definitely the way to go.

According to my measurement they should (I have to check it on the car when fitted) add from -1° to -1°45' (-1,75°) to your actual négative camber value, dépanding on how you set the ball joint up (thanks to the oblong fixing holes)
So, if you had 1° of negative camber you will end up from 2° to 2°45' of negative camber.

Then, or you can stick with OEM GTI swivel or go for S3 one (a bit lighter and may be stronger) (TT one don't seems to fit)

If you keep GTI swivel, you will be able to fit the ball joint under the TT arm as it has been designed and fitted on TT.

If you use S3 swivel, as it is more bulky than GTI one, you will have to fit the ball joint over the TT arm giving enough clearance to the swivel to turn around his vertical axle.

Note:
Ball joint fitted under or over the arm doesn't alter the geometry. What matter is not the postion of the arm itself but rather the position of the axle determinate by the fixing point of the arm to the subframe and the swivel ball joint.

TT swivel have a different fixing point which allow this clearance.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: vRSAlex on February 09, 2011, 09:35:53 pm
I would go for the TT hubs and the TT arms.  This will give you the best camber and also the best wishbone angle.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: jon-tfsi on February 09, 2011, 11:13:03 pm
I was under the impression that the tt hubs were compatible . . . .

Jabbalad bought the TT hubs from me, I have PM'd him tonight to see how he has got on with them. Hopefully he will shed some light on the subject.

I have some TT arms to go on mine at some point but they are not compatible with the S3/Cupra hubs. I undrestand that the balljoint can go on the other side of the arm but it's not meant to and that means the knurled face will be redundant. I cant help feeling the balljoint may move if hitting a pothole etc.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: laurent.d on February 10, 2011, 09:44:46 am
Let us know if TT hubs fit on our car... :popcornsoda:

Knurled suface will face ball joint lock plate instead of arm. So yes it's not fitted as it have been designed for, but I don't think it will move, and nobody reported something like that.
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: RedRobin on February 10, 2011, 10:51:50 am
Let us know if TT hubs fit on our car... :popcornsoda:

Knurled suface will face ball joint lock plate instead of arm. So yes it's not fitted as it have been designed for, but I don't think it will move, and nobody reported something like that.


....So not designed for purpose. Are you really prepared to risk a suspension failure because some 'internet expert' suggests it works and no-one has reported any problems.........   Yet!!  :stupid:
Title: Re: What is best for Neg Camber?
Post by: laurent.d on February 10, 2011, 11:14:49 am
No Redrobin,

But I just trust my mechanics mind (my first job) as the knurled surface is not realy deep and that you bolt together row casted iron with soft alloy and that the nuts are grooved as well.