MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: h4rdy on October 05, 2010, 12:15:04 am
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In my S3 intercooler thread this was discussed a bit but it was way off topic so as requested by a few shall we start again?
I am mainly interested as I was kinda interested in the APR stage 3 as a package but it is very expensive but you do seem to be getting a lot for your money.
My main queries are:
Does it use the intergrated exhaust manifold, the APR kit seems to have a two piece design.
What exactly are the mods?
Does lag and spool up increase dramatically?
What is maximum boost and does it hold it well at the top end?
It looks like 400bhp is about the levels but will it be massively spiky?
How long will it last?
How much?
And what else is needed with it? I.e RS4 injectors etc etc
Anybody else have any more questions they would like to add?
J
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The APR stage 3 kit is a Garrett GT2871 turbo, which is slower to spool than a Hybrid K04, has lower torque and IMHO an outdated upgrade when compared to even a normal K04. I've driven a few cars with a Garrett turbo and I wouldn't have them over a K04 or K04 hybrid. :smiley:
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The APR stage 3 kit is a Garrett GT2871 turbo, which is slower to spool than a Hybrid K04, has lower torque and IMHO an outdated upgrade when compared to even a normal K04. I've driven a few cars with a Garrett turbo and I wouldn't have them over a K04 or K04 hybrid. :smiley:
Thanks Hurdy, good info which I didn't know.
I knew the KO4 was a good unit so I think the hybrid KO4 is the way forward just need to collate some info.
J
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I cant fully answer the questions until I get the turbo back and have it all tested.
Our one will have uprated bearings, larger comp wheel and a small cut back on the exhaust wheel. We are NOT using a K24 or a K26 comp wheel as there are much better wheels available.
You will be able to use your old K04 unit as the bearings are changed and I can get new cores if shafts are broken. No need to buy a new unit. This should keep costs down. Im still guessing around the £995 + vat region, but maybe less. It should last longer than the standard unit.
Not sure on injectors at the moment, but I think the standard S3 injectors will be ok.
More info when the turbo come back.
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^^^
Who are you using to hybridise the K04?
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The GIAC K04 hybrid turbo uses the K24 compressor wheel and also upgrades the injectors to RS4 ones. Personally not my favourite choice of injector as the spray pattern isn't correct for the TFSi engine. The only upgrade injectors I know of that use the correct spray pattern are the ones that VF sell, but my understanding is that they are VERY expensive. JBS were selling upgrade injectors, but I don't know about the spray patterns etc.
What about the in-tank pump Alex? Before Statllers uprated their in-tank pump internals the stock pumps were basically maxxed out and physically squealing their t!ts off.
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Ive fitted a USP intank pump on a X-Bow before. Ive not finished with the car yet, but it seems to working very well at the moment.
I will reveal the hybrid maker once im happy with the turbo and the results, but its the people we usually use. Not TD, TT, CR etc.
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Nice one Alex, maybe a group buy :signLOL: if all goes well!
Just joking but very interesting all the same.
I will be interested to see how it drives for a day to dayer that the wife will use and with back to basics map what would it be like?
J
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Subscribed as my xmas present to me is hybrid ko4 :party:
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Is there any chance of k03 hybrids ?
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Is there any chance of k03 hybrids ?
Why would you though when you have the options of a K04 or K04 hybrid?
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Is there any chance of k03 hybrids ?
Why would you though when you have the options of a K04 or K04 hybrid?
Same question from me also? :confused: I'd imagine even if there was a hybrid KO3, it would only be running around the same output as a KO4 (or maybe even less).
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The K03 has a much smaller exhaust manifold and the compressor housing isnt as free flowing due to the DV being housed in it. For the cost of doing a K03 hybrid you could buy and hybrid a K04. The only way to do a K03 hybrid is to use the K04 manifold and they are not readily available.
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It is looking like the K04 hybrid on race file is approximately 50-60bhp and 60-70lbft over a stage 2+ K04 car.....342bhp and 320lbft v's 405bhp and 387lbft on the same rollers. Even the pump hybrid K04 file gave over 380bhp = a gain of around 40bhp.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft8%2Fhurdy_album%2FP1020586.jpg&hash=46fc0809567e061223ac9ec7ade587ee3d5a3c5c)
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300bhp @ 4000rpm and still nearly 330lb/ft @ 6500rpm :surprised:
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I told you it was a good mod Ben :happy2:
It is how smooth the graph is too that I like. On stage 2+ the car is stressed out with the in-tank pump and injectors running at their max and the turbo putting out 1.6 - 1.7 bar peak. With the hybrid the boost is lower at around 1.4-1.5bar peak and the uprated in-tank pump and injectors have a lot of headroom in them......so nothing is stressed. The engines aren't even pulling much timing at all :surprised:
I asked today about WHP and they are over 350whp :driver:
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I cant fully answer the questions until I get the turbo back and have it all tested.
Our one will have uprated bearings, larger comp wheel and a small cut back on the exhaust wheel. We are NOT using a K24 or a K26 comp wheel as there are much better wheels available.
You will be able to use your old K04 unit as the bearings are changed and I can get new cores if shafts are broken. No need to buy a new unit. This should keep costs down. Im still guessing around the £995 + vat region, but maybe less. It should last longer than the standard unit.
Not sure on injectors at the moment, but I think the standard S3 injectors will be ok.
More info when the turbo come back.
are you changing your engine internals. I was under the impression that the k03 BWA engine isnt as strong internally as the k04 engines due to the higher compression ratio.
DanGB bent piston rods on his with the APR GT28 which IIRC was only running 391Hp with WMI when he upgraded from his K03 leon
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I told you it was a good mod Ben :happy2:
It is how smooth the graph is too that I like. On stage 2+ the car is stressed out with the in-tank pump and injectors running at their max and the turbo putting out 1.6 - 1.7 bar peak. With the hybrid the boost is lower at around 1.4-1.5bar peak and the uprated in-tank pump and injectors have a lot of headroom in them......so nothing is stressed. The engines aren't even pulling much timing at all :surprised:
I asked today about WHP and they are over 350whp :driver:
we need one of your overlaid graphs hurdy,so we can see where the gains are. surely stadtlers must have some stage 2+ graphs laying about somewhere to compare.
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Hopefully Gojinder will post his graph up on here later for a good comparison. If not I'll get Steve to print me out a dual graph with the K04 and K04 hybrid on the same graph for a direct comparison. :happy2:
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Some very impressive results with the hybrid , interested to hear in the cost of this :party:
Will hopefully be a very good cost effective option rather than go big turbo .
Also interested to see how much power is available on standard internals :popcornsoda:
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I've had a price for the k04 conversion and it was far too expensive the kit is about £1400 and that's sourcing a second hand turbo, labour £750 and stage 3 software is £700 from revo so that is a total of nearly 3k, that's sell the gti and buy an edition 30 money so not really worth it, unless I can source a cheap kit !
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Would have thought you could pick up all the parts second hand for about a grand and 750 labour seems a bit steep too .
Altho the stage Revo map is 700 + vat which is quite a sore one :confused:
Wonder how well the Revo stage 3 map would work with a hybrid K04 :party:
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It is looking like the K04 hybrid on race file is approximately 50-60bhp and 60-70lbft over a stage 2+ K04 car.....342bhp and 320lbft v's 405bhp and 387lbft on the same rollers. Even the pump hybrid K04 file gave over 380bhp = a gain of around 40bhp.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi156.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft8%2Fhurdy_album%2FP1020586.jpg&hash=46fc0809567e061223ac9ec7ade587ee3d5a3c5c)
:jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove:
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^^^^^^It's about time you posted something up Craig :laugh: ^^^^^^
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^^^^^^It's about time you posted something up Craig :laugh: ^^^^^^
would love to but on line shoppin for new tyres 400+ takes a toll :P
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^^^^^^It's about time you posted something up Craig :laugh: ^^^^^^
would love to but on line shoppin for new tyres 400+ takes a toll :P
:laugh:
Power always needs grip!
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^^^^^^It's about time you posted something up Craig :laugh: ^^^^^^
You did such a great job posting my power graph thought that leave it to you! :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove:
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^^^^^^It's about time you posted something up Craig :laugh: ^^^^^^
would love to but on line shoppin for new tyres 400+ takes a toll :P
Aye up Craig you sure its tyres and not bikini babes :P :grin:
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^^^^^^It's about time you posted something up Craig :laugh: ^^^^^^
would love to but on line shoppin for new tyres 400+ takes a toll :P
Aye up Craig you sure its tyres and not bikini babes :P :grin:
wud deffo spend 400 quid on a pair of them mate girls that is !!! :happy2: :happy2:
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Confused.com :confused: I thought this was Steve's (ie the White ED30) that had the Hybrid? Or has the black one become Hybridised now too...? :jumping:
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Confused.com :confused: I thought this was Steve's (ie the White ED30) that had the Hybrid? Or has the black one become Hybridised now too...? :jumping:
Both have Hybrid K04's :happy2:
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Lucky gets.. :laugh: Is it Steve's that we have the dyno results from though?
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No that is Craigs (Captain Kirk :wink:)
Apologies for any mix-ups. :ashamed:
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anyone know what happebned with jabbalukes hybrid???
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No that is Craigs (Captain Kirk :wink:)
Apologies for any mix-ups. :ashamed:
So the Black on then yeah? Has Steve's had the same map now (same spec)? Must be a bit of rivalry between them then.. :booty: :grin:
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Yeah, both are now roughly the same spec although Craig's hasn't had the forge Twintercooler fitted.
One is manual (black) and one DSG (white)
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Yeah, both are now roughly the same spec although Craig's hasn't had the forge Twintercooler fitted.
One is manual (black) and one DSG (white)
good :innocent: and the evil :evilgrin:
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twinter cooler goin on tomorow and new plugs !goin for a new dyno run see if any more in her????as the s3 cooler not up to the job !!!! :jumping: :jumping: :jumping: :jumping: :jumping:
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twinter cooler goin on tomorow and new plugs !goin for a new dyno run see if any more in her????as the s3 cooler not up to the job !!!! :jumping: :jumping: :jumping: :jumping: :jumping:
I need to get my ass back from canada and get hybridised before the mrs decides its time for kids :signLOL:
Although the week skydiving for free beats the 1/4 mile :laugh:
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410+bhp then? :jumping: :rolleye: :driver:
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Just to clarify, this making me want my ED30 back!!!!!!!!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ft8%2Fhurdy_album%2FIMG_0512.jpg&hash=03ffc6f389f069cc71befc72e5d649e3b496a689)
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:congrats:Need to get prices up :party:
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Just to clarify, this making me want my ED30 back!!!!!!!!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ft8%2Fhurdy_album%2FIMG_0512.jpg&hash=03ffc6f389f069cc71befc72e5d649e3b496a689)
Wow!
I spoke to Alex briefly today, no KO4 Hybrid as yet still waiting for parts!
I say spoke, it was on here but I may pop up and see him when he has got it, without the credit card!
Need to see his intake.
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:congrats:Need to get prices up :party:
I've texted Steve Jr for you. I don't know exactly how much the conversion would be but......
VF intake - £300ish
RS4 injectors - £400ish
K04 hybrid - £750ish
In-tank pump - £150ish
Software - £??? (possibly around £500) or less if you already have GIAC?
Labour £???
I'd guess at £3kish or just over.
You would already need to be at full stage 2+ before doing these too.
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Is GIAC the only software compatible with a hybrid!? And, so for the question if it's been asked Already but, who would know where I could get k04 hybridised?
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:congrats:Need to get prices up :party:
I've texted Steve Jr for you. I don't know exactly how much the conversion would be but......
VF intake - £300ish
RS4 injectors - £400ish
K04 hybrid - £750ish
In-tank pump - £150ish
Software - £??? (possibly around £500) or less if you already have GIAC?
Labour £???
I'd guess at £3kish or just over.
You would already need to be at full stage 2+ before doing these too.
Still, if you pick up an ED30 for say £13k plus £2k for 2+.
£2.5k in brakes and chassis.
£3k for the above.
Presuming my maths is correct, £20.5k for 428 bhp is not bad and you can do it in stages over time, i.e when you get a little bored.
Anybody know of anything else 2-3 years old with 430bhp?
J
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Is GIAC the only software compatible with a hybrid!? And, so for the question if it's been asked Already but, who would know where I could get k04 hybridised?
BDMalex at Back Draft Motorsport is having his done at the moment which got me started on this.
His Skoda is in members rides.
Maybe have a look there too.
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Steve's holding off pricing until the development is fully finished. He also wants to prove the car on the 1/4 mile. Bear in mind he did a 12.76 at Inters with a full interior and luggage, it wasn't slow on the first software he had on it - and now it has around another 50ish bhp in it :driver:
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I'll have a look at Alex's build, Thank you! regarding the software question I, asked as I wanted to know if anyone knew if APR software would be compatible as thats the software I'm currently running! This is something I'm really looking forward to doing so, I'm subscribed :happy2:
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I'll have a look at Alex's build, Thank you! regarding the software question I, asked as I wanted to know if anyone knew if APR software would be compatible as thats the software I'm currently running! This is something I'm really looking forward to doing so, I'm subscribed :happy2:
I've spoken to Arin at APR in the USA and he says there isn't any plans to develop software for this application at the moment. He is VERY interested in looking into doing the Hybrid K04 himself though. I guess he may be able to adapt APR's own software for his own use, but I doubt it would be a commercially viable and fully developed option. :smiley:
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Thanks, Hurdy! Well, I think regardless of whether APR develop software for a K04 Hybrid this is the route I'll be taking!! :smiley:
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Thanks, Hurdy! Well, I think regardless of whether APR develop software for a K04 Hybrid this is the route I'll be taking!! :smiley:
Apr wants to sell their stage 3 BT kits so it's very unlikely they'll even bother with software development for a hybrid k04 that'll potentially make as much power as their BT kit.
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Alex have you got that turbo back yet?
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Should have it back this week. :party:
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Keep us updated mate.
IC has made a massive difference mate.
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Hi, i have the K03 on my scirocco and would like to know if anyone knows what i would need to upgrade to the K04. Obviously i have stage 2 , however would i need a different manifiold and therefore a different downpipe aswell? Would my injectors be adequate or need upgrading aswell and also would the internals cope or is it not as strong as the tfsi? Can anyone point me in the right direction of a company if i would need an uprated bottom end. Thanks for any help. P.s i also have the GIAC map already aswell.
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The mani is part of the turbo on the TFSI's so you would get one with the k04.
You would need a new down pipe, intake, k04 injectors and a new map.
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Eeeer sod the KO4 conversion.. I want bigger and more pics of that Rocco please :drool: :drool: :jumping:
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Geordie56 - turbo comes with manifold but a normal k04 does not fit, it needs a bit of modification, you'll also need all the dv relocation stuff.
Your car has already got good enough injectors and the hpfp is up to the job too :happy2:
If you were going down standard k04 route internals are up to it but wouldn't fancy going down hybrid k04 route on standard internals.
My mates k04 mk6 gti pulls away from my 360bhp mk5 :driver:
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Thanks for the help as usual this site is good for assistance. I am toying with the hybrid route, would the turbo still need modding to fit the manifold if so? I have included a cple of pics to keep you happy Ron.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2FComputerPics001-3.jpg&hash=42da2b73264f9346af17c2f72913a6d12c499c3d)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2FComputerPics007-3.jpg&hash=e66ca47f2d676bd019deffdaa004ff51be32b696)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2FNewBrakes038.jpg&hash=31d8cba5b3955fcd13501ddee1e134804e82f456)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2FNewBrakes042.jpg&hash=5349a48a5039543e6c1ce9ba3f86ca0c9038e522)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2Fnewpicsofcar053.jpg&hash=3d58bdac513788d7fc90b146fb004dc61bc366de)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2Fnewpicsofcar043.jpg&hash=1b81048ed3b850bec2755abb7cfe5ef5348fa4be)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2Fnewpicsofcar047.jpg&hash=b47af0a16169857bd8046023c454bbaab3ea86e7)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2FP1010011.jpg&hash=8d5035235484d51b167a5d10da82c94f97599f2d)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2FVWScirroco007.jpg&hash=367844ab3c71f5cb78ff9ebd1dfb007bbb4350cc)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fvv298%2Fgeordie56%2FVWScirroco008.jpg&hash=197d30d47a8ff8c56c9c27657983142dc5fabf38)
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Rocco doesn't have a K03 it's a IHI unit
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It's the part of the turbo outlet housing that gets modified , so not sure exactly what gets changed when getting hybridised.
Nice car and brakes btw :drool: what size 370mm ? Any spacers needed to fit under standard wheels ?
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Went out in Steve Jnr 420bhp beast for 30mins on Sat, Makes my revo stage 2+ feel like a micra lol. Seemed like there was no lag what so ever & picked up very quickly.
Great guys down there talk no crap & tell you how it is. Helped me out loads & will be going back again soon