MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: berg on February 23, 2011, 11:15:05 am
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the price difference is quite a lot really and whilst i understand the APR pump is better and less likely to be any issues with fuel getting into the oil etc my question is can the extra £400 ish really be justified?
thanks
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IMO yes, i had the same considerations and i found that a possible fault by a pump refitted by me or another non tech guy would cost more than the comfort of knowing the pump has been assembled by some that does it for a living and have been tested before shipping to me was worth the extra cost.
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IMO no, they both do the same thing, just make sure you get somebody who knows what they are doing to swap the internals, i did mine myself and was fine for 20k miles untill i sold the car. :smiley:
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Having used both (i went from Autotech to APR) i can say yes the difference is worth it.
However i did get 50k miles out of the Autotech (which i installed myself) before they started to fail.
So a way to look at it is pay for Autotech & potentially pay twice (cost of APR anyway) or pay for APR straight away and have peace of mind.
Just my Tuppence :happy2:
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thanks for input, still torn really but if vrsstu still has his by friday might go for it especially as no one else seems interested in pdt's group buy on the autotech...
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I've got no experience of either but I greatly value the opinions of those like JKM and they very strongly recommend the APR over the Autotech which they used to offer. Everyone says the same: The APR gives greater peace of mind. But it ain't cheap!
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Worth noting that APR dealers also make about 5x more profit from an APR pump than you make from an autotech pump :wink:
Also the APR pump only provides 125 bar not the 130 bar fuel pressure that most software such as Revo demands on stg2+. This isnt to say the APR product isnt any good, its a great product although very expensive compared to the alternatives. if you feel the £700+ is a worthwhile investment then go for it, but after selling 120+ AT pumps and fitting 60+ of them and some of these cars running the AT pump for over 50k miles we have never had a single pump back under warranty.
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Also the APR pump only provides 125 bar not the 130 bar fuel pressure that most software such as Revo demands on stg2+.
Sorry Dave thats wrong.
I've got logs of my Car on Stage 2+ with the APR Pump and it quite happily meets the requested 130bar.
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Also the APR pump only provides 125 bar not the 130 bar fuel pressure that most software such as Revo demands on stg2+.
Sorry Dave thats wrong.
I've got logs of my Car on Stage 2+ with the APR Pump and it quite happily meets the requested 130bar.
:happy2:
I've seen as much as 139bar on one point, with my APR pump.
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I think it goes without saying (so I'll say it!) that those who have spent money buying Autotech pumps will sing their praises and those with APR pumps will sing theirs.
If they were both exactly the same price, which would you go for?
I'd go for the APR every time (and I'm running a standard oem pump).
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PDT, i have a steady 130 bar on my APR for 45.000 km now :happy2:
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Personally if they were both the same price I'd still go for the APR unit. APR hardware (the stuff I have that is) has been great, fit's well and does exactly what it is supposed to.
If I were to do it all again, I wouldn't hesitate, I get the same stuff again.
I have to admit though, I didn't pay full price for the IC or HPFP. Which took the sting out of it.
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Having used both (i went from Autotech to APR) i can say yes the difference is worth it.
However i did get 50k miles out of the Autotech (which i installed myself) before they started to fail.
So a way to look at it is pay for Autotech & potentially pay twice (cost of APR anyway) or pay for APR straight away and have peace of mind.
Just my Tuppence :happy2:
How did they start to fail Carl, was it fuel into oil?
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Having used both (i went from Autotech to APR) i can say yes the difference is worth it.
However i did get 50k miles out of the Autotech (which i installed myself) before they started to fail.
So a way to look at it is pay for Autotech & potentially pay twice (cost of APR anyway) or pay for APR straight away and have peace of mind.
Just my Tuppence :happy2:
How did they start to fail Carl, was it fuel into oil?
Yep.
Luckily it was caught in time before it did any major damage :happy2:
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Also the APR pump only provides 125 bar not the 130 bar fuel pressure that most software such as Revo demands on stg2+.
Sorry Dave thats wrong.
I've got logs of my Car on Stage 2+ with the APR Pump and it quite happily meets the requested 130bar.
Sorry, my mistake. I was going off logs from 2 cars with APR pumps and software, its the software that requests 125bar, not the capability of the pump.
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Also the APR pump only provides 125 bar not the 130 bar fuel pressure that most software such as Revo demands on stg2+.
Sorry Dave thats wrong.
I've got logs of my Car on Stage 2+ with the APR Pump and it quite happily meets the requested 130bar.
Sorry, my mistake. I was going off logs from 2 cars with APR pumps and software, its the software that requests 125bar, not the capability of the pump.
Sorry again, i have APR K04 SW atm and it requests 130 bar and gets 130 bar from my APR pump. What APR SW are the logs from? stage? K03? :smiley:
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:rolleye:
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Stage2+ equivalent k03 cars.
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I know this post is old, but just wanted to clarify........other than the price and safety of the APR, does it have any proven performance gains over the Autotech? :confused:
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I have nothing against the APR pump (except the price), but I would get Autotech Internals fitted by a professional and happily see 50K miles from it (which is about 30K more than im likely to do with it in 5 years of ownership) :happy2:
This way the other £350 can be used to buy a Twintake/ITG etc :grin:
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Get autotech one it's a lot cheaper and it's not hard to fit at all.
Fitted my own one and I'm no mechanic just follow the instructions
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I know this post is old, but just wanted to clarify........other than the price and safety of the APR, does it have any proven performance gains over the Autotech? :confused:
Wether or not this was my car is hard to tell but.
With the Autotech fitted and meeting the requested 129.99bar my car produced on it's best run 258bhp on Stage 2
With the APR fitted on Stage 2 i got 270bhp.
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They both produce the same amount of fuel in the end. I had an autotech, then bought an APR, then bought another APR :confused:
The main concern with the autotech is the fact it has a stepped piston, which potentially in theory causes extra pressure on the seal, which could end up causing your fuel to mix in with your oil. Theres only ever been a few cases of this, and there have been thousands of them sold, so people go for the APR simply for piece of mind. although the problem could have been causes by bad assembly?
i.e http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio3_big.jpg
vs APR constant diameter pistion
http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Misc_Performance_pictures/APR%20Pump/tech/pumpimages/Visio2_big.jpg
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The war of the HPFP's has been waging for years.
If they were both the same price, which would you buy?
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I had heard that Autotech had addressed the issue in design that made their internals susceptible to failure?
I'm sursprised no one has considered KMD, they are supposed to be excellent.......... :P :signLOL:
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I have to vote APR. I am now running an APR pump after my HPFP with Autotech internals failed. Luckily I was always wary of this happening so caught it before any real damage was done to the engine but the oil smelled like it was 50% fuel.
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:scared:
How did you keep an eye on these mate? I am cosidering get Autotech internals from W8, but leaving the car on the stage 2 software.
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Check your oil regularly Lee.
If it smells like petrol or indeed the level on the dipstick starts to rise, you have a problem. Mine lasted about 50k miles before it gave in and i installed them myself. Others have had them go far quicker.
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:scared:
How did you keep an eye on these mate? I am cosidering get Autotech internals from W8, but leaving the car on the stage 2 software.
I was regularly sniffing my dipstick!! :signLOL:
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I was regularly sniffing my dipstick!! :signLOL:
....Well I suppose that's better than sniffing someone else's dipstick!
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My oil smells of fuel and always has done, it's not real bad but i think most of these engines will to some degree especially when you do frequent short trips. I'd start to worry when the oil level rises and you start to get backfires. I would imagine once they start to leak at 130bar it wouldn't take too long to fill the crankcase.
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I after experiencing stage 2, and liking it....lots, I am so tempted to get the HPFP, but it doesn't end there, I will almost certainly need a clutch as well!!! :sick:
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I after experiencing stage 2, and liking it....lots, I am so tempted to get the HPFP, but it doesn't end there, I will almost certainly need a clutch as well!!! :sick:
Sooner or later perhaps. Mine held on for Stage 2+ equivalent and I only uprated the clutch after going for the K04....of course, might as well pop that Quaife/Peloquin/Wavetrac LSD in while the clutch is being done! Ooooh, that slippery slope :laugh:
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no matter what mods you do, there are always others that you could add
ive got the AUTOTECH internals waiting to go onto mine, waiting for a friend whos a mechanic to fit them for me
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no matter what mods you do, there are always others that you could add
ive got the APR internals waiting to go onto mine, waiting for a friend whos a mechanic to fit them for me
You mean Autotech right?
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haha yeah sorry about that, just trying to confuse the argument even more
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The war of the HPFP's has been waging for years.
If they were both the same price, which would you buy?
....So, all you guys with Autotechs, would you still have bought it if the APR was the same price?
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I would have gone apr as it's an easier option. Same as if you had choice of buying lsd and get it fitted or buy a box with lsd already. Both at same price then surely 90% would go with box with it fitted for an easier life?
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I would have gone apr as it's an easier option. Same as if you had choice of buying lsd and get it fitted or buy a box with lsd already. Both at same price then surely 90% would go with box with it fitted for an easier life?
....That's an interesting analogy :happy2:
At the risk of sounding pedantic, opening up a DSG box to fit a diff has the advantage of being able to inspect the other cogs etc for wear.
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I after experiencing stage 2, and liking it....lots, I am so tempted to get the HPFP, but it doesn't end there, I will almost certainly need a clutch as well!!! :sick:
Well im popping to shark to find out what map i have on mine as I still havent had a cel appear after fitting the sports cat 2 weeks and 500 miles ago. I think I am stage 2 based on that with the internals. I have fitted the autotech internals and would fit them even if the price was the same. They are pretty straight forward to fit and I always do things myself to ensure they are fitted correctly. Apr are good but very pricey and the cost is mostly down to the brand name.
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You won't always get a CEL. I can run a stock map with my milltek and won't get a cel. for some reason it was only with the 3rd version of the stage 3 he did gave me a cel. Ben at shark said that the cel was due to a lack of flow over the lambda sensor with that particular map
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How does map alterations affect the flow over a lambda sensor?
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How does map alterations affect the flow over a lambda sensor?
Beats me :confused:
But I've never had a cel in all the time I've had all the different tuned or stock maps on my car, only had it with the shark map. :popcornsoda:
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How does map alterations affect the flow over a lambda sensor?
Fair point.
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I can confirm im Shark Stage 2+ with no CEL.
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Was just wondering what the 'life expectancy' of these APR pumps are? Anyone have a thought.
Running Revo St2+ with autotech 'internals' and all seems fine but was just curious as to whether the APR option is possibly longer lasting than autotech option perhaps may be.
In my head that would be one of the factors for perhaps swapping units.
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That's why I'm asking.
I have the Autotech internals now, but thinking about doing the upgrade to APR purely for longevity as my car is a keeper :innocent:
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I'm quite torn on this....
On one hand, you have PDT stating that he's never seen a problem with the autotech internals after many many installs :happy2:
On the other, you have tuners, such as JKM who will no longer install the internals and will only fit the full APR pump :scared:
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Exactly, and Awesome GTi were the same. I turned up there with the internals and they didn't want to fit them!!!
It was only because I drove up all the way from London that they made an exception for me......they even had to call the managing director to get permission to do it :confused:
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It will be more of a case that if a company fits the product for you and it fails. There is every chance the claim will be made against them for installing them wrongly and then it may cost them big £££s to put right. With the APR fuel pump. If that fails it cannot be because it was installed wrongly, as its a bolt off and bolt on product. If you search topics on other forums even the APR pumps have failed and its just luck of the draw. Some pumps will go miles and miles without problem. Others wont be as lucky but its a risk you take when modifying cars.
If you are thinking of spending extra money on the APR fuel pump, I would not bother as its wasted money. If it was only a couple of hunders pounds then fair do's but its a lot more than that. Id just check the oil every week and if there is no problem, I always go with the old saying 'If it ain't broke. Dont fix it!'
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I'm quite torn on this....
On one hand, you have PDT stating that he's never seen a problem with the autotech internals after many many installs :happy2:
On the other, you have tuners, such as JKM who will no longer install the internals and will only fit the full APR pump :scared:
....I have no reason to doubt PDT's advice/opinions because I don't know them. But I know JKM very well indeed and am always inclined to take their advice. So, if I was to ever get an HPFP (highly unlikely as I'm happy at Stage2), it would be an APR.
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Luck of the draw like someone has said on this thread.
I currently on golfmkv site (usa) and i have seen APR pumps fail just as much as the Autotech ones.
I guess you goto catch it quickly once it goes for both pumps. Its all a risk (engine modifying).
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I can confirm im Shark Stage 2+ with no CEL.
So Stage 3 then? :P
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I can confirm im Shark Stage 2+ with no CEL.
So Stage 3 then? :P
Almost. Sharks Stage 2+ file is a stage 2 file which takes into account an upgraded HPFP being fitted. Its the max the engine can safely produce with a OE engine cover so in some respects it is a stage 3 with the engine cover fitted. Confused :confused:
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As far as I know and experienced in the past the cam follower goes slower on the APR pump...
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....I have no reason to doubt PDT's advice/opinions because I don't know them. But I know JKM very well indeed and am always inclined to take their advice. So, if I was to ever get an HPFP (highly unlikely as I'm happy at Stage2), it would be an APR.
JKM advised me against fitting the Autotech internals but I ignored them. It was a humbling experience limping my car up to their front door and having to leave it there for a few days for the APR pump that they ordered for me to come through :ashamed:
If you are thinking of spending extra money on the APR fuel pump, I would not bother as its wasted money.
I guess the viewpoint of wasting money depends where you stand - my £250 Autotech internals and about £80 OEM pump wasn't worth much after that!
In fairness, my Autotech pump lasted fairly well but my map was only requesting stock fuel rail pressure. When I went Revo and got the full 130 bar of rail pressure, the pump lasted only a week or so before blowing the seal in the OEM pump housing. I have been running the APR for 30k miles now without a problem.
Fair do's to those running the Autotech internals and doing OK as I have nothing against it despite my experience - most have been lucky; others like me have not.
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The war of the HPFP's has been waging for years.
If they were both the same price, which would you buy?
....So, all you guys with Autotechs, would you still have bought it if the APR was the same price?
that's a bit of a silly question. the APR probably is better, i think few would deny that. BUT it's not worth 3x the price. it certainly doesn't reduce your risk of failure to 1/3 of that of the Autotech, and even if it does a tuning company on here reporting fitting 100s of the Autotechs without issue, so if for argument's sake they fitted 200, and 1 of those failed, you're going from a 0.5% chance to a 0.167% chance and tbh i'd take a 0.5% chance if it was gonna cost me £400 more for an APR pump
the APR has a reduced RELATIVE risk of failure, but the ABSOLUTE risk is negligible
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I currently on golfmkv site (usa) and i have seen APR pumps fail just as much as the Autotech ones.
Isn't that more about the cam follower / cam lobe wear issue though?
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The APR pump is grossly expensive, but i guess you get the added safety net of knowing it has been pressure tested before hand.
I guess this is why all the guys who have had the failed Autotech internals (but luckily caught it before anything was damaged) are now running the APR pumps
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I currently on golfmkv site (usa) and i have seen APR pumps fail just as much as the Autotech ones.
Isn't that more about the cam follower / cam lobe wear issue though?
I think so too. I don't recall reading about any leaking pumps, only the ones that shoot through the cam follower.
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Are the rebuilt APR pumps pressure tested and as reliable as the new version?
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Had Autotech's 1st and had my VW mech install it. It was damaged after 5800 miles. The cam wore through the follower and took the tip of the rod off. Next time I put in the APR and have had it for nearly 20k miles. I have to put in a new follower every 10k miles as it wears quickly. They are not the same, as the Autotech uses the oem spring and APR does not. Another popular option growing here in the states is 'HPFP Upgrade's' new pumps. They come in three stages and they also have a new polished chrome follower. There have not been many complaints at all on their products to date and might be worth looking into. I just do not know if the ship internationally, so check on that;
http://hpfpupgrade.com/BrowseProducts/Show/Volkswagen
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The war of the HPFP's has been waging for years.
If they were both the same price, which would you buy?
....So, all you guys with Autotechs, would you still have bought it if the APR was the same price?
that's a bit of a silly question. the APR probably is better, i think few would deny that. BUT it's not worth 3x the price.
....Not a silly question at all but a question designed to make folks think which they would buy if the price factor was removed. It's a bit of a no-brainer methinks but many folks can't look at matters objectively enough to answer the question without introducing the price difference.
Whether that big price difference is worth it or not is up to the individual but the bottom line must surely be which is the better product.
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OT but ROH ECHT, your wheels are...... :drool:
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OT but ROH ECHT, your wheels are...... :drool:
I missed the topic? :(
I thought it was autotech vs apr hpfp, right? Or no?
I have had both so I chimed in...
Thanks for the compliment on the wheels, cheers :drinking:
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OT but ROH ECHT, your wheels are...... :drool:
I missed the topic? :(
I thought it was autotech vs apr hpfp, right? Or no?
I have had both so I chimed in...
Thanks for the compliment on the wheels, cheers :drinking:
I think he meant his comment about your wheels was Off Topic :happy2:
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The war of the HPFP's has been waging for years.
If they were both the same price, which would you buy?
....So, all you guys with Autotechs, would you still have bought it if the APR was the same price?
that's a bit of a silly question. the APR probably is better, i think few would deny that. BUT it's not worth 3x the price.
....Not a silly question at all but a question designed to make folks think which they would buy if the price factor was removed. It's a bit of a no-brainer methinks but many folks can't look at matters objectively enough to answer the question without introducing the price difference.
Whether that big price difference is worth it or not is up to the individual but the bottom line must surely be which is the better product.
It's silly because it's kinda like saying "would you own a new Ferrari if it cost the same as your Golf?"
The point is that a Ferrari costs more, so a comparison on those terms is a moot point. That's all I meant.
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The war of the HPFP's has been waging for years.
If they were both the same price, which would you buy?
....So, all you guys with Autotechs, would you still have bought it if the APR was the same price?
that's a bit of a silly question. the APR probably is better, i think few would deny that. BUT it's not worth 3x the price.
....Not a silly question at all but a question designed to make folks think which they would buy if the price factor was removed. It's a bit of a no-brainer methinks but many folks can't look at matters objectively enough to answer the question without introducing the price difference.
Whether that big price difference is worth it or not is up to the individual but the bottom line must surely be which is the better product.
It's silly because it's kinda like saying "would you own a new Ferrari if it cost the same as your Golf?"
The point is that a Ferrari costs more, so a comparison on those terms is a moot point. That's all I meant.
....Yes, it's a no-brainer and that's the point of what you are calling a "silly question". Do you really find it so difficult to make comparitive judgements without thinking of cost?
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I'm still confused on this. So in very simple terms so I can understand. Can I ask this?
Accepting that both items can fail in use, what failure does most damage or are both fairly terminal for your engine whatever pump you have
- if it fails and is not noticed early.
As in does a failing Autotech cause more ££££ of damage than a failing APR???, in a hypothetical situation of course.
And are both likely to lunch through cam followers?
Or is it that when running a HPFP/tuning you are just leaving things a bit to chance, at both price points?
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I think the point is that a failing Autotech will take your engine with it. :surprised:
Provided you check your cam follower regularly there should be no problems with the APR. :smiley:
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The war of the HPFP's has been waging for years.
If they were both the same price, which would you buy?
....So, all you guys with Autotechs, would you still have bought it if the APR was the same price?
that's a bit of a silly question. the APR probably is better, i think few would deny that. BUT it's not worth 3x the price.
....Not a silly question at all but a question designed to make folks think which they would buy if the price factor was removed. It's a bit of a no-brainer methinks but many folks can't look at matters objectively enough to answer the question without introducing the price difference.
Whether that big price difference is worth it or not is up to the individual but the bottom line must surely be which is the better product.
It's silly because it's kinda like saying "would you own a new Ferrari if it cost the same as your Golf?"
The point is that a Ferrari costs more, so a comparison on those terms is a moot point. That's all I meant.
....Yes, it's a no-brainer and that's the point of what you are calling a "silly question". Do you really find it so difficult to make comparitive judgements without thinking of cost?
Clearly I don't as I've already acknowledged that the APR is probably a better bet. But my point is that the hypothetical argument is a pointless one because when you take into account the cost the Autotech is probably a better bet based on the ABSOLUTE risk of failure and value for money.
That's where my Golf vs Ferrari analogy came in. Most of us would have a Ferrari if we could afford one, but we can't so making a direct comparison to the Golf isn't a meaningful one. The cost factor can't simply be ignored to favour one choice over the other.
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OT but ROH ECHT, your wheels are...... :drool:
I missed the topic? :(
I thought it was autotech vs apr hpfp, right? Or no?
I have had both so I chimed in...
Thanks for the compliment on the wheels, cheers :drinking:
I think he meant his comment about your wheels was Off Topic :happy2:
Derp! ;/ Thanks for clearing my head for me..
With which ever one somebody chooses, they MUST check or simply replace the follower on a regular schedule. You will need to check the follower every 5k miles at first to determine at what miles you will need to replace the follower from then on. As soon as the coating is worn through, throw in a new follower. This will differ from car to car even if two cars are running the same hpfp upgrade. Some people need to replace the follower every 5k miles and others need to replace it every 20k miles regardless the company you choose.
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I'm quite torn on this....
On one hand, you have PDT stating that he's never seen a problem with the autotech internals after many many installs :happy2:
On the other, you have tuners, such as JKM who will no longer install the internals and will only fit the full APR pump :scared:
Internals have very little in the way of profit margins, but an APR pump from an APR dealer has a healthy profit margin and are easier to install.
The only component likely to fail with either option is the internal seal (there's plenty of info about both options having seal failure) and the cam lobe/follower issue is a general TFSi problem wether you have an unrated HPFP or not.
If you go Autotech then installation is the key feature to longevity, the reason for many of the failures of the internal seal is nothing more than poor installation.
Autotech owners and retailers will say go Autotech, Apr owners and retailers will say the opposite. The truth is that Autotech have sold 10's of thousands of pumps and APR have probably sold plenty as well, neither have any real documented history of causing engine failure.
I would be more concerned with correct installation and mapping/datalogging than the brand fitted and then replace the cam follower at every oil change.
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Internals have very little in the way of profit margins, but an APR pump from an APR dealer has a healthy profit margin and are easier to install.
The only component likely to fail with either option is the internal seal (there's plenty of info about both options having seal failure) and the cam lobe/follower issue is a general TFSi problem wether you have an unrated HPFP or not.
If you go Autotech then installation is the key feature to longevity, the reason for many of the failures of the internal seal is nothing more than poor installation.
Autotech owners and retailers will say go Autotech, Apr owners and retailers will say the opposite. The truth is that Autotech have sold 10's of thousands of pumps and APR have probably sold plenty as well, neither have any real documented history of causing engine failure.
I would be more concerned with correct installation and mapping/datalogging than the brand fitted and then replace the cam follower at every oil change.
This is why I'm going Autotech
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I'm quite torn on this....
On one hand, you have PDT stating that he's never seen a problem with the autotech internals after many many installs :happy2:
On the other, you have tuners, such as JKM who will no longer install the internals and will only fit the full APR pump :scared:
Internals have very little in the way of profit margins, but an APR pump from an APR dealer has a healthy profit margin and are easier to install.
The only component likely to fail with either option is the internal seal (there's plenty of info about both options having seal failure) and the cam lobe/follower issue is a general TFSi problem wether you have an unrated HPFP or not.
If you go Autotech then installation is the key feature to longevity, the reason for many of the failures of the internal seal is nothing more than poor installation.
Autotech owners and retailers will say go Autotech, Apr owners and retailers will say the opposite. The truth is that Autotech have sold 10's of thousands of pumps and APR have probably sold plenty as well, neither have any real documented history of causing engine failure.
I would be more concerned with correct installation and mapping/datalogging than the brand fitted and then replace the cam follower at every oil change.
Dave not trying to cause an argument here. But can you show me this documented proof of APR seals failing?? I can't find one instance of this online anywhere. The only one i have ever seen is the Piston going through the follower and impacting direct on the cam lobe. IIRC that was due to the follower having not been changed for about 60k miles.
In your estimation the reason Autotech's fail is due to poor installation. So how come mine lasted 50k miles before failing and I installed it myself on the drive at home. No sterile environment just a careful take OEM parts out and install new ones. :confused:
The reason Autotech's cause seal failure, from everything i have read, is due to a stepped piston. Fuel gets behind the step and as a liquid can't be compressed it takes the easiest option, i.e. past the seal. Autotech could sove this issue quite easily by making the piston the same diameter the whole length of the shaft, as per the APR.
I don't agree there is a healthy profit margin on these APR pump's either. Have you actually looked at the cost of one to a retailer? I've spoken to a few when i got one and there is very little margin in them. I would think most would make up their "margin" through the fitting.
I'm not knocking the Autotech ones. I got one from the original batch they made which cost me iirc about £225. I fitted it myself and it lasted 50K miles. even when it started to fail it was still meeting the requested 129.99bar. But if i was to do it all over again i would go straight for APR. I agree the cost of the APR is high. But at least you know it has been thoroughly tested and offers peace of mind.
For all those who are umming and arring look at it this way. You can get tyres for a Golf GTi that cost £45. They work perfectly well and are perfectly safe in terms of they do the job they are designed to do as intended. However everyone quite happily pays double or more (mine where 3x as much per tyre).
But at the end of the day you pays your money and you takes your chances. This argument will go on for time ever more
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cost me iirc about £225.
Not that much iirc. :wink:
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cost me iirc about £225.
Not that much iirc. :wink:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.nola.com%2Fmikescott%2F2009%2F02%2Flarge_0203-peter-sellers-1.jpg&hash=f1fd4d46cd4ba2f8a6e942979b7b4e202712ab1c)
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Dave not trying to cause an argument here. But can you show me this documented proof of APR seals failing?? I can't find one instance of this online anywhere. The only one i have ever seen is the Piston going through the follower and impacting direct on the cam lobe. IIRC that was due to the follower having not been changed for about 60k miles.
In your estimation the reason Autotech's fail is due to poor installation. So how come mine lasted 50k miles before failing and I installed it myself on the drive at home. No sterile environment just a careful take OEM parts out and install new ones. :confused:
The reason Autotech's cause seal failure, from everything i have read, is due to a stepped piston. Fuel gets behind the step and as a liquid can't be compressed it takes the easiest option, i.e. past the seal. Autotech could sove this issue quite easily by making the piston the same diameter the whole length of the shaft, as per the APR.
I don't agree there is a healthy profit margin on these APR pump's either. Have you actually looked at the cost of one to a retailer? I've spoken to a few when i got one and there is very little margin in them. I would think most would make up their "margin" through the fitting.
I'm not knocking the Autotech ones. I got one from the original batch they made which cost me iirc about £225. I fitted it myself and it lasted 50K miles. even when it started to fail it was still meeting the requested 129.99bar. But if i was to do it all over again i would go straight for APR. I agree the cost of the APR is high. But at least you know it has been thoroughly tested and offers peace of mind.
For all those who are umming and arring look at it this way. You can get tyres for a Golf GTi that cost £45. They work perfectly well and are perfectly safe in terms of they do the job they are designed to do as intended. However everyone quite happily pays double or more (mine where 3x as much per tyre).
But at the end of the day you pays your money and you takes your chances. This argument will go on for time ever more
Don't quote me, but I thought Autotech had done, or were planning on doing this?? :confused:
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If Autotech thought they had a fault in there products, surely they would go back to the drawing board - Do the same design at APR ?
edit: ^^ posted same time as me lol!
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cost me iirc about £225.
Not that much iirc. :wink:
I said about :P
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Don't quote me, but I thought Autotech had done, or were planning on doing this?? :confused:
If they are then they haven't done it yet.
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If Autotech did ever copy the APR design it would cost a lot more than it does now as they'd have to enlarge the piston and all the associated parts that go with it.
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Yes but by doing that, they will get more fans to the product. IF they do that route they would have to match or be cheaper then APR units - that will be a win/win.
How long have then been producing the Units for (Autotech) ?
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In your estimation the reason Autotech's fail is due to poor installation. So how come mine lasted 50k miles before failing and I installed it myself on the drive at home. No sterile environment just a careful take OEM parts out and install new ones. :confused:
I have to echo what Carl is saying here, I did install mine myself admittedly but did do it on cling film with IPA, nitrile gloves etc and was absolutely meticulous about it. My autotech internals ran for a good time (about 20k iirc) but a problem with the map that I had at the time meant I was only getting 110bar of rail pressure. A change of map and the full 130 bar of rail pressure and my pump failed sometime within a week by the time I noticed. Now I'm not discounting an installation problem but the failure of the OEM seal at the time that it did would suggest something else. I can't blame rail pressure as that's the point of the upgrade.
I have to say that I have kept an eye on the whole APR/Autotech failures and, like Carl, was not aware of the internal seal failing on APR pumps - only the cam follower is issue with both and also OEM.
But at the end of the day you pays your money and you takes your chances. This argument will go on for time ever more
I think that sums it up! I know that Carl is not anti-Autotech and neither am I - we both faced the same choice as everyone else considering an uprated HPFP and both went for Autotech. I still have nothing against going the Autotech route but only advise that folks keep an eye on it and don't assume that a professional installation is a guarantee of longevity because Autotech failures are all about installation. They are about the inherent weakness of the internal seal in the OEM pump....most will last I guess, but some will not.
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I don't really think it's a weakness of the seal though. It works perfectly well with the OEM internals.
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Fair point - I was just about to modify my post to say the increased pressure put on the seal with the stepped piston design trapping fuel behind it and applying the pressure on the return stroke :wink:
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Fastest finger first Dave :P
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I cannot work out why tuners need to run fuel pressure at 130 bar. From what Ive read on other forums about flow rate in injectors, the optimum flow rate for TFSI injectors is 110 bar and anymore can actually create back pressure, slowing the fuel down putting extra strain on the HPFP. I know that Shark maps run at around 110 bar and not the full 130 bar as other tuners and the engines still make the same power. I see the benefit of running with upgraded HPFP as I have an Autotech fitted and it picks up cleaner and holds the power. But I am wondering if the HPFP are being put under strain and its actually the injectors cannot flow the 130 bar easily like an S3 injector and its causing extra back pressure in the fuel rail. I could be wrong but its worth a thought :popcornsoda:
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Dunno mate but I thought it was the pump limitation that was causing the so-called fuel cut in modified cars.
I needed it for a KO4 conversion which involves S3 injectors getting fitted so never questioned it.
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Fastest finger first Dave :P
And where does that finger go Mr Fleming? :booty:
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Fastest finger first Dave :P
And where does that finger go Mr Fleming? :booty:
Nothing wrong with a bit of Abseiling in the Shower Lee :grin:
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I cannot work out why tuners need to run fuel pressure at 130 bar. From what Ive read on other forums about flow rate in injectors, the optimum flow rate for TFSI injectors is 110 bar and anymore can actually create back pressure, slowing the fuel down putting extra strain on the HPFP. I know that Shark maps run at around 110 bar and not the full 130 bar as other tuners and the engines still make the same power. I see the benefit of running with upgraded HPFP as I have an Autotech fitted and it picks up cleaner and holds the power. But I am wondering if the HPFP are being put under strain and its actually the injectors cannot flow the 130 bar easily like an S3 injector and its causing extra back pressure in the fuel rail. I could be wrong but its worth a thought :popcornsoda:
Are you sure Shark run 110 bar on their stage 3 map (which is actually a stage 2+ by Revo and APR standards)?
Stage 1 and 2 run 110 bar normally.
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Nothing wrong with a bit of Abseiling in the Shower Lee :grin:
I love to belay myself......when im climbing
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I know its around that figure and not up in the 130 bracket. I was wondering if it wasnt the design of the internals that wholly contributed to the pump seals failing and if it was the fuel rail pressure being too high for the injectors to cope and causing increase back pressure in the rail etc. My idea is based on pouring a liquid (fuel) into a funnel (injector). If you pour too quickly, the funnel backs up as it cant flow the liquid quickly enough. I wonder if this also has an effect on the pumps failing? It may or may not but I'm just throwing it out there as in idea :smiley:
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I cannot work out why tuners need to run fuel pressure at 130 bar. From what Ive read on other forums about flow rate in injectors, the optimum flow rate for TFSI injectors is 110 bar and anymore can actually create back pressure, slowing the fuel down putting extra strain on the HPFP. I know that Shark maps run at around 110 bar and not the full 130 bar as other tuners and the engines still make the same power. I see the benefit of running with upgraded HPFP as I have an Autotech fitted and it picks up cleaner and holds the power. But I am wondering if the HPFP are being put under strain and its actually the injectors cannot flow the 130 bar easily like an S3 injector and its causing extra back pressure in the fuel rail. I could be wrong but its worth a thought :popcornsoda:
Are you sure Shark run 110 bar on their stage 3 map (which is actually a stage 2+ by Revo and APR standards)?
Stage 1 and 2 run 110 bar normally.
They did originally on mine and muckipups Octavias, but we had a whole world of issues at first. Mine were solved, daves werent, hence his swap. We both asked for the rail pressure to be raised. Whats the point in a stage 2+ map with an UPRATED fuel pump if their map is only going to request a rail pressure which can be maintained on the stock pump? Isnt that a waste of money?
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I know its around that figure and not up in the 130 bracket. I was wondering if it wasnt the design of the internals that wholly contributed to the pump seals failing and if it was the fuel rail pressure being too high for the injectors to cope and causing increase back pressure in the rail etc. My idea is based on pouring a liquid (fuel) into a funnel (injector). If you pour too quickly, the funnel backs up as it cant flow the liquid quickly enough. I wonder if this also has an effect on the pumps failing? It may or may not but I'm just throwing it out there as in idea :smiley:
Are you sure? Im sure they run at 120.9bar or 129.9bar on the stage 3?
Another thought could it be the way the fuel is requested and hammered i have seen a few logs where it constantly requests say 130bar though out rev range. Now i know request is not actual but when request is met it usually stays at 130bar.
On standard car i am sure the 110bar is much more gradual with less of a bang effect.
Or i could be talking complete rubbish. Maby some of the guys who have had failures should post up there logs and people who are still running A T with no issues post up there logs.
Would be interesting to see if there is a pattern
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Just checked my past logs
Shark Stage 1 110.99 Bar requested rail pressure
Shark Stage 3 (2+) 120.99 Bar requested rail pressure (think these were the logs prior to them increasing the rail pressure on mine though)
Bluefin Stage 2+ 129.89 Bar requested rail pressure
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It would be handy to know if there is a relation to the way the fuel pressure is introduced, how much pressure and if this directly relates to pump failure.
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Considering the many hundreds (easily around that number if not more when you consider GIAC/APR/REVO on a worldwide basis) of cars running Stage 2+ with 130Bar requested i think its fair to say the rail pressure isnt the issue.
After all the pumps were designed to run at this pressure all the time. Id like to think they would have been tested to run at a higher pressure without failing. Maybe Keith @ APR could elaborate on what the pressure test range is for the APR pumps. Id be pretty confident its higher than 130Bar though.
Interesting read here
Hi guys, this is a copy of a post I done for another Forum as this has been asked before, and a few people have been asking this to us by Email etc recently. The botton line is, if you already have an Autotech or KMD pump supplied by us dont worry.
We stopped supplying pump internals some time ago now so some text below is a little out of date but will give you the 'history' so to speak.
JKM appreciate that some people would like to know more about why we have made the switch from KMD & Autotech TFSI fuel pump internals over to the complete APR pre built and tested unit.
Where we have been using KMD/Autotech internals I will detail what process we have been going through for each fuel pump prior to sending it out to a customer, so you will get a feel for the process that needs to be run through by JKM to ensure that the pumps are of sufficiently high quality to sell to a customer.
After receiving the fuel pump internals from the manufacture (say for example KMD) we first check the machined parts for known manufacturing problems by measuring and a general visual inspection – any problems here and the pump internals are rejected.
We then hand assemble the parts together and with a light lubrication between the piston and bore, the clearance and general feel is assessed. The internals are then hand assembled into a test fuel pump body - any problems here and the pump internals are rejected.
Assuming that all is good on the above, we can then begin an up rated fuel pump internal build into a brand new OEM pump.
Cleanliness is paramount here as any debris etc will ruin the piston shaft. This is something that we only do in an extremely clean environment to ensure the utmost quality.
Once the fuel pump is built, we then move onto the next main step – Testing.
To ensure that each TFSI fuel pump that we supply is of the highest quality we have been testing each pump built by JKM, on our own TFSI car.
Therefore every time we build a new pump Kates nice new shiny MK5 GTI is pulled apart and the test pump is installed for performance testing under load. Following the install we analyse each fuel pump in detail.
We will look at the fuel pumps Quantity Valve differential angle, Total Compression volume, Fuel pressure and more – again comparing the results against known good units.
With our experience of these pumps it is possible to analyse the results and detect possible problems with internal clearances as a result of machining tolerances, but this is a very complex area. If we suspect problems we will remove the fuel pump, disassemble and inspect it again – any problems found here and the pump internals are rejected.
Following all of the above, assuming that the built TFSI fuel pump is functioning correctly, we will remove the fuel pump from our test car, seal it into a bag and box it and send out to the customer.
The main reason we have chosen to swap from KMD/Autotech is that the above is very costly to us (time wise) to get a good pump together. We have sometimes had to build 3 pumps to get 1 good unit.
We appreciate quality engineering, which APR provide with their fuel pump,
Our equivalent of the APR test rig, is our own MK5 Golf GTI engine and our diagnostics knowledge.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FAPR%2520Pump%2Fpumptest.jpg&hash=4a4a3a4a13e6a969530cb6281f0b904a8e5bd84c)
APR does have a superior hardware design, changing much more than just the piston and bore. The complete internals are re-engineered, right down to the balanced seal rings and main spring assembly. This design puts less stress on the rear balanced seal than the other pump solutions – the APR pump design is along the same route as the OEM pump only obviously containing larger internals for increased fuel volume.
APR route out bad pumps themselves during testing at their own facility, and the pumps have even been used by VW Motorsport on the VW Scirocco GT24 which won the ADAC 24h Race without any fault.
For those interested more information on this can be found here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3855643
JKM will only bring to market the quality items. If we find that the quality of an item is not acceptable we will first try and work with the supplier for a solution but ultimately if we would not be happy to use the product on our own car we will not sell it to a customer for use on their car.
For JKM the up rated internals route (only) is too inconsistent from the manufacturers.
APR provide a quality fuel pump out of the box, and the customer is in the knowledge that there will be no issues.
The APR pump can be bought in 2 ways.
1) An outright buy of an APR pump, where by you can remove your stock TFSI pump and retain it somewhere safe and simply install the APR pump. This route costs £624+Vat excluding postage back to you.
2) The second route is a core exchange but this can take up to 6 weeks to complete this process, where by if you send us your TFSI pump we will send it to APR for YOUR pump to be modified at the APR headquarters , this route costs £509+Vat excluding postage back to you and you are responsible for postage of your pump to JKM intially. However it does take a long time to complete this process due to the international shipping involved.
More information is at the following link: http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/tfsipumps.htm
For those customers already with a JKM built KMD or Autotech pump, you do not need to worry as we have done the above testing process on your pump to ensure you have a good unit.
I hope this helps clear up the questions in this area and hopefully you will appreciate why we have made the switch to the APR unit.
For those who wondered, our own car does use an APR fuel pump but the K04 conversion car that has been on long term testing (27,000+ miles) has been, and is still using a KMD pump without fault due to the above testing process that we have performed.
Keith
JKM initially started supplying high volume/pressure 2.0 TFSI fuel pumps to customers in 2007. We have tried and tested many of the solutions available to the market. JKM have tested items that replace the fuel pump internals only (larger and stepped piston desing) and the APR design (larger but constant diameter piston as per the OEM Hitachi design).
Following long term reliability testing feedback JKM are now only supplying APR TFSI fuel pumps for 2.0 TFSI applications as we believe that APR has the most superior mechanical design.
The APR fuel pump design replaces more than just the piston and bore. The piston diameter is increased along with the complete re-engineering of the pump internals to suit the high volume design. This design approach will drastically reduce the possibility of fuel to oil mixture during the service life of the fuel pump.
Pump overview - Constant Diameter piston - Stepped Piston
Newly designed components are used throughout, such as a larger spring energized seal for a leak tight operation alongside a Diamond like Piston coating increasing surface hardness for a highly reliable operation.
In order to maintain the Highest Quality Standards all APR Fuel pumps are built at the APR facility in Alabama USA, where they are put through an aggressive post build testing process - ensuring that when you get an APR fuel pump, its reliability is without any question.
Therefore with Quality and Reliability in mind, JKM are now only supplying the APR High Pressure fuel pumps for 2.0 TFSI cars.
Fitting instructions for APR Fuel pumps can be found here. JKM do offer an installation service at £55.00+Vat - (£66.00 Including Vat)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FAPR%2520Pump%2Ftech%2Fpumpimages%2FVisio3_big.jpg&hash=2beab90bddc6c0739f1628863b6fe94cc74cc2ec)(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jkm.org.uk%2Fperformance%2FMisc%2FMisc_Performance_pictures%2FAPR%2520Pump%2Ftech%2Fpumpimages%2FVisio2_big.jpg&hash=9ce3513a6438f802e5bd9af712e1d3d5cd47b5c0)
APR testing regime/facilities http://www.goapr.com/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html (http://www.goapr.com/products/fsi_fuel_pump.html)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goapr.com%2Fincludes%2Fimg%2Fproducts%2Ffsi_pump_machine_internal_th.jpg&hash=044fd8b788effea62e810caaf3c4ed4a336d58e9)
This is what your paying your extra money for.
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So there only reason is because it makes easier life to fit apr as they don't have to check pump and internals over and less worry of conditions.
They say they still have a car with 20k+ kit with kmd which is fine.
As for pressure testing I bet you could run A T at 140bar with no issues for a few 1k.....
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" For those customers already with a JKM built KMD or Autotech pump, you do not need to worry as we have done the above testing process on your pump to ensure you have a good unit.
I hope this helps clear up the questions in this area and hopefully you will appreciate why we have made the switch to the APR unit.
For those who wondered, our own car does use an APR fuel pump but the K04 conversion car that has been on long term testing (27,000+ miles) has been, and is still using a KMD pump without fault due to the above testing process that we have performed."
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They say they still have a car with 20k+ kit with kmd which is fine.
That was a post from ages ago. Im pretty certain Si's car had some fueling related issues recently requiring a fair bit of work. Might be wrong though. Ian or Carl should be able to ellaborate on that though
Therefore with Quality and Reliability in mind, JKM are now only supplying the APR High Pressure fuel pumps for 2.0 TFSI cars.
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" For those customers already with a JKM built KMD or Autotech pump, you do not need to worry as we have done the above testing process on your pump to ensure you have a good unit.
I hope this helps clear up the questions in this area and hopefully you will appreciate why we have made the switch to the APR unit.
For those who wondered, our own car does use an APR fuel pump but the K04 conversion car that has been on long term testing (27,000+ miles) has been, and is still using a KMD pump without fault due to the above testing process that we have performed."
The plot thickens..... :popcornsoda:
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Personally I reckon its down to the way the pressure is delivered. If you was to run A T on a standard map requesting the normal 110bar then how would it hold up with regards to cam follower wear and other issues.
Again I could be talking complete s**t
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I think my confusion is now clearing.
Although i'm running Autotech at the minute this topic has really got me thinking i need to get saving for the APR 'all in one' unit.
Probably overkill and at the minute probably not necessary - but trying to be objective and whilst really not wanting to lay out a huge amount of cash on a second HPFP option I really think it's a better long term option, regular cam followers accepted, (which is what I was adhering to anyway).
Was also just looking through NeilM's build thread, page 16 of that thread outlines his cam follower explosion which did a fair amount of damage.
He then went from Autotech internals to an APR pump, obviously his issue was the follower bursting, but I thought it was telling swap to read about.
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Is it an idea to change the cam follower on the OE pump regularly?
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Is it an idea to change the cam follower on the OE pump regularly?
It's certainly worth checking every 20,000 miles. Mine had done 45k and showed little sign of wear, but I changed it anyway as a precaution.
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Is it an idea to change the cam follower on the OE pump regularly?
For the sake of a £25 part and 30 mins of work then yes i would. As Rich says check it every so often and see what the wear is like. It might be worth popping a new one in yours anyway if it's never been done.
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You can buy uprated cam followers that last twice as long as standard
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You can buy uprated cam followers that last twice as long as standard
But I would prefer the the follower to wear rather than the camshaft.
Another to throw into the mix
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120862765892#ht_2463wt_689
Apparently it neither KMD or Autotech, "its our own developed pump."
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Is it an idea to change the cam follower on the OE pump regularly?
For the sake of a £25 part and 30 mins of work then yes i would. As Rich says check it every so often and see what the wear is like. It might be worth popping a new one in yours anyway if it's never been done.
I have certainly never changed it in the last 20k and at a guess neither has the previous owner! Perhaps a wise investment, is it a DIY job?
You can buy uprated cam followers that last twice as long as standard
But I would prefer the the follower to wear rather than the camshaft.
Another to throw into the mix
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120862765892#ht_2463wt_689
Apparently it neither KMD or Autotech, "its our own developed pump."
"we recommend a torquetronix stage 2 remap as soon as any kit are fitted" WTF??? :sick:
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heres a spanner in the works. just had revo stage 2+ installed yesterday, it only requests 125.33 bar of fuel pressure :popcornsoda:
Cant understand how stage 2+ reueqst less than the stage 2 that asked for 129.99bar :surprised:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2Frevorail.jpg&hash=2c456b6cef921eee4e7dd1959c7d77ccd254d258)
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That could explain why Carl's run better on stage 2 with a HPFP?? :popcornsoda:
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You will find the timing is altered slightly from stage 2 to stage 2+. Thats where the power is made so you dont need the full 130 bar. Less is more sometimes :happy2:
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Try explaining that to Mrs P....... :sad1:
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Try explaining that to Mrs P....... :sad1:
....Does Mrs P need to know?
Phew! That's a very fine avatar you have there, Mr P! x :drool: x and x :drool: x
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Is it an idea to change the cam follower on the OE pump regularly?
No not necessary. Checking it regularly, yes. Maybe every 10k to 20k miles pop it off and look at it. If the coating is close to wearing through just go ahead and put in a new one.
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You can buy uprated cam followers that last twice as long as standard
The price listed isn't correct, so keep reading;
http://hpfpupgrade.com/Products/Show/Volkswagen/2.0T+FSI+VW/VW+FSI+Performance+Cam+Follower
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That could explain why Carl's run better on stage 2 with a HPFP?? :popcornsoda:
They must have changed it as this was my Stage 2+ :confused:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fww275%2FTaufe%2FScreenShot2012-03-02at181522.png&hash=9dbfb0d4b03974d26d496c24b6a5551f1b04d7f9)
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I have certainly never changed it in the last 20k and at a guess neither has the previous owner! Perhaps a wise investment, is it a DIY job?
Yes as long as you have the tools. I did a tutorial for it here:
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8339.0.html
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heres a spanner in the works. just had revo stage 2+ installed yesterday, it only requests 125.33 bar of fuel pressure :popcornsoda:
Cant understand how stage 2+ reueqst less than the stage 2 that asked for 129.99bar :surprised:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2Frevorail.jpg&hash=2c456b6cef921eee4e7dd1959c7d77ccd254d258)
Is that not adjustable with your SPS switch?
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You can adjust the fuelling to make richer/leaner but not the Rail pressure.
Whilst I was trying to find the phantom issue with the car (obviously it would never be the software :grin:) when I had 2+ I tried fuelling from 4-9 and it never made any difference to the rail pressure.
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Revo carl response was because its 12 degrees outside, the engine with reduce the requested rail pressure because of the heat :signLOL:
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Whilst I was trying to find the phantom issue with the car (obviously it would never be the software :grin:) when I had 2+ I tried fuelling from 4-9 and it never made any difference to the rail pressure.
So that was your car that made better figures on Stage 2 instead of Stage 2+? :stupid:
How could that possibly be? Boost leak? :signLOL:
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Whilst I was trying to find the phantom issue with the car (obviously it would never be the software :grin:) when I had 2+ I tried fuelling from 4-9 and it never made any difference to the rail pressure.
So that was your car that made better figures on Stage 2 instead of Stage 2+? :stupid:
How could that possibly be? Boost leak? :signLOL:
It must have been :laugh:
On Stage 2+ with an APR HPFP it made 254bhp and 260lb/ft. Without leaving the dyno it was flashed back to Stage 2 and made 270bhp and 300lb/ft.
But there was nothing wrong with the code, it was the car :grin: :grin:
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Revo carl response was because its 12 degrees outside, the engine with reduce the requested rail pressure because of the heat :signLOL:
WTF that's rubbish surely. The UK average temp is 13°C iirc
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Revo carl response was because its 12 degrees outside, the engine with reduce the requested rail pressure because of the heat :signLOL:
WTF that's rubbish surely. The UK average temp is 13°C iirc
Well considering my logs above were done in July then i would have to agree :grin:
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Maybe boost leak isn't the 2012 excuse :grin:
@Dom
What's PDTs take on it?
You should have took that APR offer :grin:
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Maybe boost leak isn't the 2012 excuse :grin:
@Dom
What's PDTs take on it?
You should have took that APR offer :grin:
PDT said its the latest stage 2+ revision.
I managed 350 bhp with the great white shark map which only requested 120.99 bar?
Car goes like s**t off a a stick again, but now I've gone stage 2+ I've got the dreaded overboost back again, I should have just stayed stage 2 :signLOL:
Hindsight is a fine thing :fighting:
The APR offer was great, but it was the fact that the closest dealer was miles away, so if I had any issues with the map, would have been a total pain.
I was put off by the big torque numbers that mike got, and the large amount of boost, now my car only makes 5lb/ft less with about the same bhp as mike, pushing 2 bar of boost :confused:
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Think mike has a decat dp so his will have more torque than a normal Stage 2+
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oh well time to eat humble pie :ashamed:
did some datalogging again, looks like this new map doesnt follow the same rules as all the other maps I've had :ashamed: :ashamed:
seems like it does change requested rail pressure dependant on unknown variables :stupid:
3 different rail pressures on 3 sets of logs so far
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fb150%2Fheavyd123%2F2run1.jpg&hash=9c8000dde9c99115a6652dbefdae401819db7914)
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interesting that!
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Are you sure you know which map this is as you do have a fair selection :grin:
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On this occasion I'm sure, this is only the 7th time this year my ecu has been flashed :evilgrin:
Logs were done yesterday and this morning :wink:
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are we below 12Degrees now then lol
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Log block 114 and 230 and all should become clear.
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All dependant on engine load i'd imagine.
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All dependant on engine load i'd imagine.
Id imagine like all previous logging runs, he'll be at WOT from very low revs to the redline. If hes on the same stretch of road id expect the load to be pretty similar.
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Load (requested and actual) often has no relation to throttle angle, load is the final request the ecu makes after taking all factors into account so if intake temp is high/low or ign advance is overadvanced etc... Then load value will change accordingly.
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I'm used to all the other maps I had where it requested either 110, 121 or 130bar when car is under load, seems strange this new one does away with that, and actually modulates fuel pressure, which can only be a good thing at the end of the day.
Which is the best block for measuring intake temps?
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I'm used to all the other maps I had where it requested either 110, 121 or 130bar when car is under load, seems strange this new one does away with that, and actually modulates fuel pressure, which can only be a good thing at the end of the day.
Which is the best block for measuring intake temps?
+1 I cant really see anything bad from this. Never seen it on any other car though.
004-4 iirc for IATs
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I bought my autotech second hand. I have now nearly 80k on it with no problems. It gave a healthy 324bhp on JKM's rollers too.
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Log block 114 and 230 and all should become clear.
Well I logged blocks 114 and 230, still isnt becoming very clear Dave, :stupid:
Its requesting full load, but now only 119.8 bar of rail pressure requested :confused:
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Also the APR pump only provides 125 bar not the 130 bar fuel pressure that most software such as Revo demands on stg2+.
Sorry Dave thats wrong.
I've got logs of my Car on Stage 2+ with the APR Pump and it quite happily meets the requested 130bar.
Sorry, my mistake. I was going off logs from 2 cars with APR pumps and software, its the software that requests 125bar, not the capability of the pump.
....So am I right in thinking that Revo Stage2 (not 2+) on a K03 requests a max of 125bar and so the APR HPFP still has plenty of 'headroom'? And that it isn't necessary to upgrade to Revo2+ just because of having an APR HPFP?
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You can run an uprated pump with any software Robin even stock.
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Logging at JKM yesterday has shown that my stock fuel pump was struggling occasionally even with my boost turned down a notch on Revo2 to compensate for the extra air delivery from my Forge Twintake. So I've had to put my money where my mouth has always been regarding the HPFP subject. This has allowed my Revo boost setting to return back up to how it was.
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Robin,
This is typical with Forge Twintake as it's so efficient it delivers too much air sort to say..... My tuner had similar issue when I got K04 on my gti so he had to tweak the map to compensate for it
Paul
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So not a cheap JKM visit then Robin! ;-)
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Logging at JKM yesterday has shown that my stock fuel pump was struggling occasionally even with my boost turned down a notch on Revo2 to compensate for the extra air delivery from my Forge Twintake. So I've had to put my money where my mouth has always been regarding the HPFP subject. This has allowed my Revo boost setting to return back up to how it was.
Which one have you gone for RR, or have i missed it? :party:
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APR... I'm 100% sure of that.
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APR... I'm 100% sure of that.
In which case an extra £50 could have gotten him a 2+ map... :scared:
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Logging at JKM yesterday has shown that my stock fuel pump was struggling occasionally even with my boost turned down a notch on Revo2 to compensate for the extra air delivery from my Forge Twintake. So I've had to put my money where my mouth has always been regarding the HPFP subject. This has allowed my Revo boost setting to return back up to how it was.
Which one have you gone for RR, or have i missed it? :party:
....There was a big clue in my post, Jake :happy2:
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APR... I'm 100% sure of that.
....You're not wrong!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FAPR_HPFP_1366.jpg&hash=0c8d8b293546e20c63c94b2f66a8f6b2c42fa66a)
Plus a new Cam Follower although it actually didn't need replacing yet - Only very minor signs of wear. It's called preventative maintenance.
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So is your car running normal now Robin?
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APR... I'm 100% sure of that.
In which case an extra £50 could have gotten him a 2+ map... :scared:
....You're a very, very, very bad influence! (and a credit to this forum's ward for those on the slippery slope of modding).
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So is your car running normal now Robin?
....Not quite. New MAF needed and being fitted next thursday on the way to our evening meet (unless you have given birth!).
I was getting slight fuel 'starvation' rather than abrupt cuts - When making progress hard it was very subtley delaying during the process of meeting the requests. Very much a result of the extra efficiency of my Forge Twintake.
Beginning to feel smoother already (only 90 miles since HPFP) and nice acceleration from higher speeds :wink:
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unless you have given birth!
That would be a miracle considering its my wife who is pregnant :P :grin:
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So is your car running normal now Robin?
....Not quite. New MAF needed and being fitted next thursday on the way to our evening meet (unless you have given birth!).
I was getting slight fuel 'starvation' rather than abrupt cuts - When making progress hard it was very subtley delaying during the process of meeting the requests. Very much a result of the extra efficiency of my Forge Twintake.
Beginning to feel smoother already (only 90 miles since HPFP) and nice acceleration from higher speeds :wink:
To be fair a hpfp will make a difference with any Revo map.
Perish the thought of those people adding intakes and then not logging the car or noticing that car is telling them to back off. :scared:
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are you plumping for the stage 2+ mp then robin? YOu might as well, you have all the supporting mods to be able to handle the extra power and put it to the tarmac
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are you plumping for the stage 2+ mp then robin? YOu might as well, you have all the supporting mods to be able to handle the extra power and put it to the tarmac
....Still undecided. You may have noticed that I'm a late developer! OAP goes for Stage2+? :grin:
Yes, I have the supporting mods, though not an intercooler. But I need to keep the car and don't want to reduce its longevity. I think I should start another thread rather than take this one off topic.
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well you might as well take the plunge and get an intercooler, something as simple as the S3 cooler would be sufficient :innocent:
You dont have to have your settings maxed out anyway. I think you wont be loosing longevity tbh.
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well you might as well take the plunge and get an intercooler, something as simple as the S3 cooler would be sufficient :innocent:
You dont have to have your settings maxed out anyway. I think you wont be losing longevity tbh.
....Just two words why I won't be moving to Stage 2+ (for now at least): Clutch Packs! - I'm on DSG and the torque would get up'd.
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well you might as well take the plunge and get an intercooler, something as simple as the S3 cooler would be sufficient :innocent:
You dont have to have your settings maxed out anyway. I think you wont be losing longevity tbh.
....Just two words why I won't be moving to Stage 2+ (for now at least): Clutch Packs! - I'm on DSG and the torque would get up'd.
The DSG can handle way more power than you would have at 2+ Robin, lots of ED 30 boys with DSG have gone down this route and i cant think of one with clutch problems. Hurdy tried to beat his DSG with a baseball bat and it was mostly working perfectly. :happy2:
Just my opinion Robin, but you dont drive anywhere near the capabilities of you engine as it is, not many people do unless you are on track, if you went 2+ it would only get used for numbers on the dyno days. :wink:
Stage 2 is more than enough for your needs. IMO. :wink:
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^^^^ This.......
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....Just two words why I won't be moving to Stage 2+ (for now at least): Clutch Packs! - I'm on DSG and the torque would get up'd.
The DSG can handle way more power than you would have at 2+ Robin, lots of ED 30 boys with DSG have gone down this route and i cant think of one with clutch problems. Hurdy tried to beat his DSG with a baseball bat and it was mostly working perfectly. :happy2:
Just my opinion Robin, but you dont drive anywhere near the capabilities of you engine as it is, not many people do unless you are on track, if you went 2+ it would only get used for numbers on the dyno days. :wink:
Stage 2 is more than enough for your needs. IMO. :wink:
....I agree :happy2: I mention clutch packs because I suspect that mine might need replacing in the not too distant future as I've done 100,000 miles and there's slight 'slippage' when driving the box of tricks very hard. The additional torque of Stage 2+ would be more likely to shorten their life, so I'm advised by JKM.
In everyday road conditions, even when having fun making progress, my existing power and handling is plenty and delivers buckets of joy. :happy2:
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I never had a bigger I/C at st2+, and look at the abuse mine took on track with zero problems.
At worst I was being sapped of a couple of BHP, so what? It never logged anywhere near what's considered 'hot' and saved me £xxx to boot.
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well you might as well take the plunge and get an intercooler, something as simple as the S3 cooler would be sufficient :innocent:
You dont have to have your settings maxed out anyway. I think you wont be loosing longevity tbh.
I have an S3 IC going cheap :laugh:
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well you might as well take the plunge and get an intercooler, something as simple as the S3 cooler would be sufficient :innocent:
You dont have to have your settings maxed out anyway. I think you wont be loosing longevity tbh.
I have an S3 IC going cheap :laugh:
....Oh dear! Is it advertised on the forum yet, or shall I PM you?
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....Oh dear! Is it advertised on the forum yet, or shall I PM you?
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,44948.0.html