MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Modifications & Technical Area => Performance Modifications => Topic started by: Carrera2RS on July 18, 2011, 05:54:37 pm
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My story so far....
I have waited for a long time, I cant remember how long but months to get a set from VWR, they were delivered to Simpson Motorsport.
I took today off to get them fitted, not a good start, no instructions, a chip on the paint, no washers where Simpson say there should be. The bolts not plated, but.....
No matter they are cheaper than AP and the guys know what they are doing, in the bays sit, 3 BMW CSL's, two Brit cars, two Z4s with cages, buckets and track tyres and two F40's and my Golf ! All others having much more serious stuff undertaken, I am in safe hands.
Problem 1. The calipers were built upside down ! The piston order was wrong, Simpson said this way round could cause binding. Again no matter simply dissasemble pipes and swap round.
Problem 2. They were built an and overtightened assembled with no copper slip, but the guys did sort one caliper in reediness for fitment
Problem 3. They don't fit ! They hit the backplate, no instructions, so backplate off. They also hit the bottom ball joint.
Problem 4. At each interval Simpson phone to let them know about the assembly issue in case they are sent out and installed by less experienced people, to find if the backplates should be removed, to discuss the clearance problem, they are racing.......no one home that can help.
Quick measurements highlight the problem, the inner face of the brake disc sits 8mm further in than stock, this is about the total clearance. If they did clear then the caliper did not appear to mount centrally around the disc.
Possibly incorrect machining of the bells I have waited weeks for. I have paid Simpson for the brakes and work as it is not there problem and they have paid VWR
£110 plus vat in labour a day waisted, no brakes and no answers, VERY UNIMPRESSED :fighting:
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:sad1: Not good news at all!!
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Didn't someone else on here have similar issues? Was it danish?
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they dont run the vw backing plates :confused: take them off
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We did, they hit the bottom ball joint :ashamed:
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Did they put the ball joints on correctly ?
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Dont you have the TT lower arms. :happy2: If so i think SteveP had the same issue with his VWR brakes and TT arms.
And all the other stuff is par for the course from VWR. But once you can contact them, they will bend over backwards to help you out. Even though it would be better to fix problems before they occur. VWR in a nutshell. :happy2:
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if you have as tt says then thats why they dont fit :smiley: they are built on the stock gti setup and once you change that you need to tell vwr that :smiley:
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I'll try and speak to VWR tomorrow, I did discuss my suspension settings and mods at the sane time I discussed if uprating rear brakes was worthwhile
What was the solution with TT bottom arms ?
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What was the solution with TT bottom arms ?
A new home for them, i believe. :sad1:
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What was the solution with TT bottom arms ?
A new home for them, i believe. :sad1:
Correct :sad1:
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What was the solution with TT bottom arms ?
A new home for them, i believe. :sad1:
Sell them to Mike :P
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What was the solution with TT bottom arms ?
A new home for them, i believe. :sad1:
Well i have the TT arms and S3 hubs on mine and had a go at fitting the Tarox 10 pots from Hurdy's car, with the S3 hubs the adaptor for my non radial fitted calipers sits 16mm further in and new adaptors are being made as we speak. But trouble with the TT arms seems not to occur. The REVO brakes are the same as VWR, maybe they have some knowledge as to get these brakes to fit?? But IMO it's a pain to get something to fit when just one part is altered from stock. That's the way i like my stuff, ,, 1 problem at the time :wink:
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If they simply don't fit I expect them to take back and refund. There is nothing on the web site and I had long conversations about the suspension settings I run and the bottom arms adding track and the reason why buying the kit for stock wheels with the extra 6mm would not be a good idea.
Plus they are unused and unsuitable if this is the case. They do say please call to discuss needs, I did.
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You will have issues with vwr brakes and tt lower arms and I believe this is why steve sold his and went with adjustable top mounts. Correct me if I'm wrong Steve.
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I was going for the adjustable top mounts anyway but wanted the TT arms for the adjustably and lighter weight.
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I have now had cups made for the KW top mounts to suit std. size springs but am unsure how much adjustability there is with the larger diameter stock spring. Still it should be possible to get aftermarket brakes to fit with TT arms on?? :confused:
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Simpson have spoken to VWR and they are travelling, they couldn't understand why they don't fit.
I have updated Simpson as to the reason why, ie the different ball joint placement with TT arms, one possible solution outside sending back would be to have new bells made with a different offset and shim the brake caliper to suit. This would move the caliper out, it's a case of how much clearance the team dynamic wheels have between the wheel and caliper. I would consider moving by say 5mm, can anyone who has this combo see if this is possible ?
If not it's looking at AP's and seeing if the inner face of the brake disc with their kits is moved inwards by less than 3mm.
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This is due to the width of the caliper and the fact that they try to get them to fit a OEM wheel with no spacer.
Consequently they try to shove the disc inboard too much and then build a spacer onto the bell.
As an alternate to the VWR setup try some AP discs and some R8 rear calipers, F40 Pad shape and OEM+. Similar price with some backup
Fantastic pedal, huge pad choice, A1 rotor material, light weight
TD Wheels have a lot of clearance.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,28872.0.html (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,28872.0.html)
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Your link doesn't work Dave. :confused:
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Does for me. :confused: :confused: :laugh:
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Your link doesn't work Dave. :confused:
Nor me :laugh:
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I don't think you will have clearance on the TDs if you move the brakes out by 5mm, mines at KPM again for at least another week so can't check to confirm.
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Does for me. :confused: :confused: :laugh:
Your speshul. :grin:
I get:-
An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.
Ah I see you've banned me. :sad1:
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I get a link to Audi R8 362mm 4pot conversion. First post PDT. :rolleye:
What you on about banning you. I will if you really want me to. :P
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Does for me. :confused: :confused: :laugh:
Your speshul. :grin:
I get:-
An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.
Ah I see you've banned me. :sad1:
Same
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4100%2F4860986463_82ebcc0839_z.jpg&hash=919279a5a0c6ec237d04930f5cf8d7299078a7a2) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/adam2605/4860986463/)
. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/adam2605/4860986463/) by . (http://www.flickr.com/people/adam2605/), on Flickr
nom nom nom
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It is because it is in the the old forsale threads temp section. :happy2:
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4100%2F4860986463_82ebcc0839_z.jpg&hash=919279a5a0c6ec237d04930f5cf8d7299078a7a2) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/adam2605/4860986463/)
. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/adam2605/4860986463/) by . (http://www.flickr.com/people/adam2605/), on Flickr
nom nom nom
:drool: noiiice
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It is because it is in the the old forsale threads temp section. :happy2:
Oh I thought I'd been banned as I didn't have access. :wink:
Nevermind back on topic.
They look good just not in white though. :smiley:
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FIMG_2266-1.jpg&hash=e28105db48a38d54972d273f4f0e0cb59b063807)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FIMG_2268.jpg&hash=b7f3d53940790c6bed2abeaef6c5af31135951a0)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi715.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww160%2Fjakethemoss%2FIMG_2269-1.jpg&hash=56a8c23b5403608ef56f8b20515f68877f3edcfd)
:drool:
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Nice... shame about the silly wheels!
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I agree with u rich the brakes are :drool: :drool: but those rims are :sick: :sick:
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Carrera, do you have TT arms and/or S3 spindles ? If yes, they can't possibly fit as they've been designed for the standard GTI arms & spindles (although I can't imagine them using these heavy iron parts on their racing cars). There would be 2 problems :
1) S3/R32 brakes do fit both GTI & S3 spindle because the caliper bracket mounts on the outside face of the spindle wich has the same distance related to the disc mounting point on the hub (wheel bearing). However, as the aftermarket caliper brackets mount on the inside face of the spindle, the S3 spindle is 16mm thicker than GTI one (33m for S3 and 17mm for GTI) wich means new brackets (16mm elongated) need to be made. Dave is doing these for my Ap Racing brakes as we speak !
2) The tt arms and ball joints will also interfere with the lower side of the brackets so they need to be modified there also
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Carrera, do you have TT arms and/or S3 spindles ? If yes, they can't possibly fit as they've been designed for the standard GTI arms & spindles (although I can't imagine them using these heavy iron parts on their racing cars). There would be 2 problems :
1) S3/R32 brakes do fit both GTI & S3 spindle because the caliper bracket mounts on the outside face of the spindle wich has the same distance related to the disc mounting point on the hub (wheel bearing). However, as the aftermarket caliper brackets mount on the inside face of the spindle, the S3 spindle is 16mm thicker than GTI one (33m for S3 and 17mm for GTI) wich means new brackets (16mm elongated) need to be made. Dave is doing these for my Ap Racing brakes as we speak !
2) The tt arms and ball joints will also interfere with the lower side of the brackets so they need to be modified there also
And point 2 is due to the fact that the AP's is an Radial mounted calipers right? :smiley:
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Guys, tks
I have TT bottom arms, stock hubs. I want something that involves no additional modifications and simply bolts on to the current arrangements. Are we saying that AP 330/28 four or six pot won't work ?
I really don't want to be shopping around for parts, worrying about fitment etc, etc. There must be something from AP/Brembo/Alcon that is a bolt on that does not move the inner face in by some 8mm and clears ?
If not I will try pads only and replace discs :sad1:
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Hard to say if they work or not. With OEm hubs, point 1) will be acomplished but not 2). Only DaveB could help in this respect !
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AP do a kit for an S3, you need to be the queen to afford it.
My info is that only three sets exist one of which is on a shelf somewhere, they quote 28 days delivery.
Alternatively 996 turbo calipers, the cupra has S3 hubs and there's a few guys with this setup. The S3 also isn't endowed with the biggest of master cylinders so the big split in piston sizes of the 996tt caliper helps with the pedal.
You could spend a lot of cash and go backwards quickly
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Alcon 6-pot 365mm MKII TT kit?
An 18" TT wheel goes straight over them, but then they have a more generous offset.
Bolt on, pretty much the best you can get.... but expensive. Speak to EARS in Macclesfield for the best price, but be prepared to punt £2k upwards.
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what is the point of fitting the s3 arms to have nothing fit :rolleye: you wont even be able to tell if they have made a change to the car :rolleye: and if you say you can its in your head :confused: leave it alone fit good coilovers,walk,arbs and fit the brakes job done
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S3 Arms and Hubs are fine it's the TT ones that seem to cause the problems. :confused:
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Some good progress,
I have spoken to VWR, they are considering a solution and will come back to me.
It's worth pointing out they built the calipers the non usual way round to improve pad life for a road car. The 'normal' race way round will provide better 'bite' and braking, but at the expense of pad life.
If this is not a goer, then I will look at your helpful suggestions DaveB thanks for the help
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what is the point of fitting the s3 arms to have nothing fit :rolleye: you wont even be able to tell if they have made a change to the car :rolleye: and if you say you can its in your head :confused: leave it alone fit good coilovers,walk,arbs and fit the brakes job done
Matt, I have TT arms not S3, Hubs are stock ?
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Mat, I've replaced the TT arms first and felt a good cornering improvement and then the S3 hubs and the comfort improved !?!? Believe me, this was not only in my mind and I don't fully understand it even now. Because the hub is just a lighter piece of metal it can't influence comfort by itself but the only logical explanation for me is the lower weight of the hub helped the damper work better since the ride is much less crashier now !
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It's worth pointing out they built the calipers the non usual way round to improve pad life for a road car. The 'normal' race way round will provide better 'bite' and braking, but at the expense of pad life.
:grin:
Somebody fooked up, one way fits all Im afraid. Small piston bites first, bigger subsequent piston bites second. From leon Cupra R to Red Bull F1 Car, unless VWR know better than AP Racing who manufacture F1 brakes.
You're being blagged because of a school boy error - you'd feel better if they just laughed and coughed for it or at least tried to tell you they were off an A4 which does have lagging not leading brakes...............
better 'bite' and braking, but at the expense of pad life.
MY ARSE! :sick: :sick:
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a couple of things, i have fitted no end of these brakes to various cars. now, the first set i was given to fit when taken from the box, my immediate thought was that they had either been built incorrectly or were designed to be fitted at the rear of the disk, (trailing)
rather than spend time trying to get hold of VWR, (believe me i know how difficult this can be!!) i went straight to the guy who is responsable for their build, who i luckily know through racing, he has no reason to "fob" me off and pretty much said the same as above, which i found a little odd. taking his word i carried on as requested and i have to say we have never had an issue with pad wear or performance. we run these brakes on two of our 6 vw cup cars and personally i think they are a great product for the money.
as for the tt arms saga, i was in a position at the start of the year where i didnt have alot of choice, after shattering an alcon disk, i had no spares to race with. our only hope was to fit a second hand set of vwr brakes complete. simple......
untill i found the fouling issue on the ball joint, (i must add this was about half 11 at night and i lost my sense of humour completely) as it was my own car i took a tt bottom ball joint and machined it back untill there was no "casing" left. having learnt how thick the bodys were we then removed only the neccecary material for the brakes to clear, which in our case was only fractional.
this car has run all season with no issues and you would expect the cornering forces it is seeing on the circuit under race conditions to be far greater than you would see anywhere else. sorry to ramble on but i hope this is of some help.
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Very helpful indeed :happy2:
How much meat have I got to play with on the ball joint ?
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Ok so there is no reason yours should be any different from ours however, don't just keep grinding away untill they fit!!!! It is only the bottom outer radius that we reduced by about 2mm. Very difficult to explain, let me take a picture when I get to work, it will explain all. Was in two minds whether to mention this because it sounds like a proper lash up. Ours were genuine tt joints, and there was more than enough meat to play with. Picture to follow.....
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right some piccies
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fl611%2Fmrscouserkev%2FIMG_2714.jpg&hash=633bf5827f451ed2ed46fe2fc3a3f40cb17b37f6)
the above shot from underneath, gives the best indication of how much we removed, very important you dont break the pressed in sealing plate at the bottom side.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fl611%2Fmrscouserkev%2FIMG_2715.jpg&hash=62535dac854c5311f718e6d651d44fe09da94a43)
the shot above from the front where we had to relieve it further round than the following shot from the rear.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fl611%2Fmrscouserkev%2FIMG_2717.jpg&hash=3ce33ef7488d6954fa9846752feed8acc6e291c8)
we really didnt have to take much off at all but other cases may differ, since these were fitted we even tried fitting various different pattern joints but as yet have not found one any smaller in body than the genuine ones. if i can be of any further help let me know. :happy2:
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Awesome pictures and very clear :happy2: :congrats: :congrats:
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Also be aware that the tt ball joints usually fit under the wishbone rather than on top. This may push them further towards the disc.
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Great on a track only car.
I think that you would have difficulty explaining to your insurance that you had removed material from a VAG developed component, thus weakening the structure. Albeit only marginal, still modified.
What happens when the ball joint fails? IMO there are some things that interrupt the safe modding path, and DIY removal of material from a vital component without any development is one of them.
Stress paths, loading etc, also being subjected to the direct heat of the brake disc might have a effect on the ball joint?
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I've read this thread and I think I understand it.
The conclusion? I'm not gonna buy VWR; that is all.
Matt
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All now on, Simpson Motorsport also chamfered the excess metal on the inner face off the disc to get sufficient clearance for heavy suspension movement and full wheel lock :happy2:
They have excellent pedal feel and stop as I would expect and hoped. The car now has brakes ! Moving from an M5 with 6 pot AP's then an E92 M3 I was shocked how crap stock brakes are. I can now take speed off the car in a very stable reassuring way, something I had very much missed.......
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:congrats:
Congrats !!
Also be aware that the tt ball joints usually fit under the wishbone rather than on top. This may push them further towards the disc.
This doesn't affect how the ball joint clears the disc. :wink:
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Bruce,
Thanks for all your help :wink:
Plus I also had my arch screws removed and folded back to retain and slightly lift the inner arch. I have zero 'touches' since. They were never a major problem and no tyre whitness marks but over big dips at certain lock I would hear a small 'kiss' whcih was annoying :smiley:
I am very nearly there now :party:
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Another thumbs up for Simpsons, top guys, my car lives there :happy2:
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Just to update.
So far very impressed, braking has feel, bite and immense stopping power. This is what should be fitted to a performance hot hatch IMO. I never forgot pushing the middle pedal for the first time in a Porsche RS, it reminds me how poor most cars are at stopping and shedding speed.
Forget the emergency stop at 20mph, it's the ability to shed 30-40 miles an hour off your speed when you want to quickly and competently with feel and control. Previously hit the middle pedal when you need too and it was worrying in comparison.
Don't overlook your brakes guys :happy2:
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Useful thread thanks for the update! I would definitely consider this setup in the future
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Yip defintooly the best mod you can do on the gti, a set of decent stoppers !
You mentioned rubbing on your arch ? Out of interest roughly how much lower are you ? Does your bbk require a spacer ? And are you running standard pescaras ?
Cheers Bryan
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I run 35-40mm lower at the rear and 20mm at the front. I have a lot of extra track...
Wheels ET45 8x18 so the outer edge is 12mm a side, plus the TT bottom arms which add track in order to add camber, this adds a further 12mm at the hub centre and 6mm at the top arch.
So at the arch lip nearly 18mm additionally track per side, so total track increase over 36mm at the arch, nearer 48mm at the hub and more again at the bottom of the wheel as I run 2.15 degrees negative camber at the font. I have not had one touch of the arch since, I have been cornering hard over some very undulating surfaces and it's been prefect :wink:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fyy277%2FIWCDoppel%2FP1010511-1.jpg&hash=f2631e7f84d4af0f134d32fd5d122ac0a0333b0c)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fyy277%2FIWCDoppel%2FP1010742.jpg&hash=34f0e44fc3d06c958fc5a829abdbfe597c50cf38)
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Can you stop posting photos of your car please.... It's making me jealous.
Does the camber on the front make a lot of difference?
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Sorry for all the pictures :ashamed:
Yep the camber (and I suspect track) makes a marked difference. I explored the chassis balance at much higher speeds than your big roundabout speeds to see how the balance might be at much higher speed. It was remarkable and was still very planted and when I did feel the weight transfer uncomfortably load up the rear and hinted at braking away, a touch more throttle and it was back to neutral. Turn in is excellent with front camber. Understeer is virtually a thing of the past :wink:
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Carrera2RS I have a pretty similar setup (TT arms, lower suspension) but have both smaller offset wheels and larger offset wheels. With 8inch (width) rims and ET50 I have rubbing on Nurburgring and there is not one thing I can do about it (except to buy some wider fenders). With the ET40 wheels I do not dare going to Nurburgring. I am also planning to buy some TD Pro Race 1.2 (17 inch though) and I have a question: when you mean there is no rubbing did you include very bumpy tracks like the Nurburgring Nordscheife?
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I have not driven on track, but there were a number of very unpleasant bumps that would clip the inner fender before the arches were modified, now I have yet to have any problems at all.
Some bumps I have been over nearly bottom the suspension at speed, so I do believe the problem is now removed. Even 3 people up and pushing on over poor roads, no problem.
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OFFTOPIC. Well... I hope you are right :drinking:. I personally doubt it, but a trip to Nurburgring will prove one of us wrong (I will buy the wider fenders to get rid of this issue). The immense differences in elevation and 90+ mph will make the car behave differently than on a normal road even if the car is loaded.
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Oh another thought, I am not sure if Simpson Motorsport 'pulled' the arches a little, I did mention that loosening fender mounts and a little adjusting then re tightening had also been mentioned.
The inner lip is rolled back and the inner arch moved upwards when they did this, not just bolt removed. I take your point, there is a real 'dipper' on one of my regular trips, when I had my E92 M3 I would hit the front spoiler on some occasions. This was a slow down point for me as it can throw the car around, even this was okay at speed and getting thrown around
I guess the answer might be very different if you get corner loading and a real awkward dip/bump. I'd like to try and see, but for a road car it has not been an issue so far (1,000 miles or so)
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Thanking you mate ! Sounds like i might need to get my arches modded or new wings with a bit of clearance !