MK5 Golf GTI
General => Product Reviews => Topic started by: RedRobin on November 28, 2008, 04:24:41 pm
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Like most mods, you don't actually need any of them, but........You could apply the same way of thinking and say you only need a Toyota Yaris (Sorry, but driving one of those is enough to destroy your will to live! I know this to be true - I've done so). At first, my perception of a limited slip diff was that it was pointless unless you did trackdays but talking to one or two people with experience of them and also driving my good friend Jason's Mk5 GTI with a VWRacing installed Quaife convinced me otherwise. The fact that VW have now included a LSD, albeit electronic, in the GTI Mk6 acknowledges that traction can be a problem in certain conditions and that applies to standard and not just remapped GTI's with more neddies at the front wheels.
WHAT IS A QUAIFE ATB HELICAL LSD DIFFERENTIAL?
Detailed description: http://www.quaife.co.uk/What-is-a-Quaife-ATB-differential
Further Info: http://www.quaife.co.uk/VW-DSG-ATB-diff
WHY:
To improve traction and ability to grip. This in turn assists handling. It's not quattro but you have to push a car with quattro closer to its limits to have the equivalent 'fun'. The following is quoted from Quaife:
"The Quaife Automatic Torque Biasing Helical LSD Differential enables a car to accelerate more rapidly and corner faster.
How? Simply by getting the power to the ground.
With an normal open differential, fitted as standard on most cars, much precious power is wasted through wheel spin under acceleration.
This happens because the open differential shifts power to the wheel with less grip - along the path of least resistance.
The Quaife differential, however, does just the opposite. It senses which wheel has the better grip, and automatically biases the power to that wheel. It does this smoothly and constantly, and without ever completely removing power from the other wheel.
In cornering, while accelerating out of a turn, the unit biases greater power to the outside wheel, reducing inside-wheel spin.
This allows the driver to begin accelerating earlier, exiting the corner at a higher speed.
The Quaife differential also controls loss of traction when the drive wheels are on slippery surfaces such as ice and snow or mud, providing the appropriate biased traction needed to overcome these adverse conditions. Power is transferred automatically without the use of normal friction pads or plates seen in other limited-slip designs."
Why not use a traditional, plate style limited-slip differential?
Method one is to use a traditional, plate style limited slip differential, the type of which is used commonly in racing and rallying. This uses a pack of clutch plates worked by sun and planetary gears to transmit a set percentage of the torque to the spinning wheel (say between 40 and 50%.) Certainly these units are effective in increasing traction, but they do have negative implications on both driver enjoyment and vehicle longevity. In some applications on very high performance cars the LSD's clutch plates are now engaged using computer-controlled electro-hydrualic action, with obvious cost implications.
PLATE-STYLE LIMITED SLIP DIFFS:
Unless it's set up correctly, a plate-style LSD can ‘snatch' as it suddenly locks to maximum torque transfer. This is particularly noticeable in a front wheel drive car, usually when driven rapidly along a bumpy road, as the vehicle will tend to skip from bump to bump as the LSD tries to transfer the torque to the unloaded wheel. A similar effect will be experienced in a powerful rear wheel car, albeit not felt directly through the steering, but nonetheless this can compromise driver enjoyment.
The traditional style LSD's reliance on clutch plates, as well as sun and planetary gears for operation ultimately leads to wear on these components when used hard. For example, it's not uncommon for high performance track / rally cars to undertake a differential rebuild at least once a season.
THE QUAIFE ATB DIFF:
A second mechanical method of improving traction is to use a Quaife Automatic Torque Biasing Helical LSD differential. Rather than using clutch plates as a method of operation, the Quaife ATB Helical LSD uses sets of floating helical cut gear pinions that run in pockets and mesh during normal driving.
Should one of the driven wheels start to spin however, the helical gears start to generate a torque bias thanks to the axial and radial thrust of the helical gear pinions in their pockets. The result is a progressive transfer of torque away from the spinning side of the axle to the driven wheel, which is now capable of transmitting a greater proportion of torque.
Positive Dynamic Effects:
Because the Quaife ATB Helical LSD differential's design produces a progressive transfer of torque away from the spinning wheel to the wheel that's capable of driving, the effect is far more benign to the driver. In a front wheel drive car harsh snatching and torque steer are eliminated, so much so that it's not uncommon for a Quaife ATB Helical LSD differential to cope with 400bhp through the front wheels in aftermarket road applications.
SOURCING:
On finding that very few workshops had ever fitted the DSG version to the Mk5 GTI, I went to VW Racing who have plenty experience of such things and are obviously used to stripping the 2.0T FSI on a very regular basis. I also asked for price quotations from JKM and APS - Two more workshops I trust but who don't have the same degree of experience. Costs were all within £50 of each other with VWR the most expensive at about £1,500 all inclusive for the DSG version (which costs more than for the Manual gearbox).
INSTALLATION:
NOT for the faint hearted! And NOT recommended to be done by your friendly local neighbourhood garage. It requires a change of filter and specific DSG oil and precision and particular care by the mechanic. However, once installed, it's maintenance free and you can forget it.
Allow 2-3 days overall.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR-QuaifevsStock.jpg&hash=85cb32e5e087be1e49947c848df75d300e5228d2)
^ I think it's a finely engineered object of great beauty ^
OTHER VERSIONS:
American company Peloquin also offer a LSD and their product has a very good reputation and apparently is slightly cheaper. However, I have heard it's not as smooth and, of course, aftersales support will be far better with Quaife/VWR being in the UK.
Quaife Manual and DSG versions are available.
An interesting new diff development is now available from Wavetrac in USA. Info here : -
http://www.vwtuningmag.com/new-wavetrac%C2%AE-limited-slip-differential-from-autotech-driveline/
PLUS POINTS:
Whether your GTI is standard or performance modified, it will be transformed by the Quaife ATB diff. Once installed you only realise it's there when you discover how its benefits are assisting you to make progress. I haven't driven track where I know it will be even more of an advantage, but on the road and in UK typical bad weather it makes all the difference.
MINUS POINTS:
It's not cheap. It will always be limited by your tyres and the road surface conditions - You can still induce wheelspin but it gets controlled far quicker and so much more smoothly without the juddering and grappling for grip. Stocks are sometimes low and can result in a few weeks delay. I can't think of any more minus points and I've now driven about 3,000 miles with it on every type of road and in every type of road condition except snow or ice.
SUMMARY:
I feel it's money well spent but it's quite a lot of money at around £1,500. But the same can be said for the AP brakes and suspension mods. In remapping the car, such mods become sensible as they provide improved handling and stopping power. The car wasn't dangerous without these mods (unless, of course, I was to drive it beyond its safe limits) but the car inspires more confidence. That doesn't mean I'm going to drive that much faster but it does mean that I derive even more enjoyment.
I used to sometimes feel disappointed if the roads were wet because I hate wheelspin and loss of traction - it makes me feel that I'm not driving properly - and it would sometimes happen if I didn't take extra care. It's the simple everyday instances such as an exit from a T-junction or at a roundabout when there is lots of traffic and you need to join that traffic flow quickly without scrabbling around. You might say it's a luxury but it does transform the car. When Mark at VWR said "I've now got a date when we can transform your car" my initial thought was crikey, are they going to strip it out? But now I know what they meant.
Someone on another forum pointed out that installing the DSG diff was like my car having open heart surgery and that I'd lose money due to not being able to resell it separately. But my attitude is that I'm keeping this car awhile and it's all done purely for my enjoyment and even my safety. Anyway, who in their right mind is going to say they'll buy my car only if I put back a stock diff!? One day it'll either be someone who wouldn't know it was fitted anyway but liked the car's handling. Or it'll be an enthusiast who says: "She's got a Quaife? Ooooooh! Yes pleeeeease!!". VWR installed new bearings too - I think I just extended that part of my car's life!
The latest Mk6 GTI has an electronic limited slip diff called XDS as part of the ESP but I trust a purely mechanical one more. The ESP is 'led' by whatever the Quaife reacts to physically on the road and not the other way around via sophisticated sensors.
Most young dudes would rather spend their money on a remap because the returns feel so much more obvious but I would recommend the Quaife ATB diff as much more beneficial, unless you like wheelspin!
:happy2: 8) :happy2:
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I've learnt that the new Mk6 GTI electronic diff called XDS....
"...is actually still part of the gearbox, but is "controlled" by the ESP/ABS system, in the same way that the Mk5 EDL (Electronic Differential Lock) is. It basically works using "pulse width modulation" in exactly the same way as the Haldex controller - in that the "diff" itself can not "sense" the levels of torque (applied torque, wasted torque, and useable torque), like an ATB diff such as Torsen/Quaife/Peloquin can."
"...the Quaife is identical to Torsen - and a Torsen diff is used in the rear axles of the Audi R8 and Audi Q7, along with all centre diff applications in longitudinal mount VAG four wheel drive cars (except the Veyron, R8, and Q7)."
[^ Thanks to Sean aka Teutonic_Tamer]
So, which would I prefer? - A Haldex-style diff or a Torsen-style diff? - No brainer, the Torsen-style Quaife.
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Brilliant write up Red leader :smiley:
Thanks for taking the time to add to this growing section. :drinking:
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Nice write up Robin :happy2:
A top mod I reckon should be considered much earlier in the GTI upgrade path
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Great write up! If only I had the money................
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My visa is itching LOL
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I think that the new Focus RS has a LSD and that's probably why Ford haven't bothered with '4WD'. I reckon that a LSD is a far more economical alternative for a car manufacturer and also results in a lighter weight and all the knock-ons such as better mpg etc.
I wonder if it's just the GTI Mk6 which has XDS, or whether the ordinary Golf Mk6's have it too. I spoke to a guy today who is converting a Mk5 TDI to look like a Mk5 GTI ( :surprised: I don't understand it but etto) and he has remapped it to nearly 200 bhp and was complaining about wheelspin.
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My visa is itching LOL
Mine too... I had to literally remind myself that I have an R32 on the way next week and that I CANNOT spend ANY more money on my cars :grin: :grin: :grin: Come February and a contract renewal, I'll be on the phone to VWR straight away for a Quaife and brake upgrade :evilgrin: If my contract isn't renewed, pray for me :scared:
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I think that the new Focus RS has a LSD and that's probably why Ford haven't bothered with '4WD'. I reckon that a LSD is a far more economical alternative for a car manufacturer and also results in a lighter weight and all the knock-ons such as better mpg etc.
I wonder if it's just the GTI Mk6 which has XDS, or whether the ordinary Golf Mk6's have it too. I spoke to a guy today who is converting a Mk5 TDI to look like a Mk5 GTI ( :surprised: I don't understand it but etto) and he has remapped it to nearly 200 bhp and was complaining about wheelspin.
any idea how much the manual version costs ?
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any idea how much the manual version costs ?
....Around £1,280 including installation and vat from VWR and about £1,500 for the DSG version. As I posted before, VWR were about £30 more than anyone else but have more experience.
Mark at VWR/RacingLine can tell you more:
Email: m.farmer @ volkswagenracing.co.uk
Office: 01908 210088
Mobile: 07792329721
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any idea how much the manual version costs ?
....Around £1,280 including installation and vat from VWR and about £1,500 for the DSG version. As I posted before, VWR were about £30 more than anyone else but have more experience.
Mark at VWR/RacingLine can tell you more:
Email: m.farmer @ volkswagenracing.co.uk
Office: 01908 210088
Mobile: 07792329721
cheers red , i dont think thats all that expensive really , less than the bbs ck s i ve been looking at !!!!!! which do i get first ?????????? happy new year :happy2:
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I wonder if it's just the GTI Mk6 which has XDS, or whether the ordinary Golf Mk6's have it too.
I did not see it in the current broucher i have so im guessing GTI only.
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Thanks for the writeup Red. As you know this has been on my list of "stuff to do" forever - I was actually planning on getting it done at Quaife itself, but might do so at VWR now if they're amenable to doing other people's cars.
Won't be for awhile though, that list is long and neverending :P
IIRC the Porshce 911 Turbo (997) has an e-diff setup, and the F430/599GTB also have an e-diff. Mechanical diffs, for the record, are reactive, whereas electronic diffs can be predictive (and more precise in their application of power at the same time).
I do R&D with hybrid/electric vehicles as some of you know... we have a 2.5 tonne softly-sprung vehicle using our own equivalent of an electronic diff and it can hold onto corners better than my GTI :P
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Mechanical diffs, for the record, are reactive, whereas electronic diffs can be predictive (and more precise in their application of power at the same time).
....But isn't 'predictive' where the problem potentially is? - In the same way that the GTI's ESP thinks for you and can cut power when you don't want it to.
I find the Quaife diff so fast in its reaction that I don't see it as a negative.
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....But isn't 'predictive' where the problem potentially is? - In the same way that the GTI's ESP thinks for you and can cut power when you don't want it to.
I find VWR's Quaife diff so fast in its reaction that I don't see it as a negative.
Heh, that's just a software issue... it will be resolved in time as we develop new (and smarter) algorithms, use more sensors and throw more processing power at it.
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cheers red , i dont think thats all that expensive really , less than the bbs ck s i ve been looking at !!!!!! which do i get first ?????????? happy new year :happy2:
....Well it's only my opinion, but it's a no-brainer in favour of the ATB diff. Especially on a remapped Ed30 like yours because the Quaife comes into play more often with more neddies at the front wheels.
The diff won't stop your TC lighting up but it will very greatly reduce the time it takes to grab traction and it will greatly soften any juddering as your wheels/tyres grapple for adhesion.
From the point of view of clutch wear, it's good that it's not as efficient as quattro.
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....But isn't 'predictive' where the problem potentially is? - In the same way that the GTI's ESP thinks for you and can cut power when you don't want it to.
I find VWR's Quaife diff so fast in its reaction that I don't see it as a negative.
Heh, that's just a software issue... it will be resolved in time as we develop new (and smarter) algorithms, use more sensors and throw more processing power at it.
...."will be resolved in time" doesn't satisfy my needs now.
...."more sensors" makes me think 'more room for error'. Sometimes sensors either fail or get dirty and malfunction.
With the Quaife it's Fit 'n Forget and just service your DSG box regularly which you should do anyway.
:happy2:
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...."will be resolved in time" doesn't satisfy my needs now.
...."more sensors" makes me think 'more room for error'. Sometimes sensors either fail or get dirty and malfunction.
With the Quaife it's Fit 'n Forget and just service your DSG box regularly which you should do anyway.
:happy2:
Well, given you couldn't fit an electronic diff to your Golf now means that we're speaking purely hypothetically here ;) if you were to get an F430 or 599GTB I'm sure you'd find the e-diff more than satisfying! WRT sensors, remember, the ECU in the Golf is already collecting data from some several hundred sources (and data from other control units with other sensors) - so a few more won't hurt :P
I still look forward to getting a Quaife (eventually).
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^^^^
Oh, believe me, I would find lots of aspects of a Ferrari extremely satisfying! I'm not knocking electronic diffs generally but just questioning their current development in the Golf range and it's not an option for a Mk5 anyway.
:happy2:
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And from VWs previous versions of electronic control systems the odds are it will be pants. :evilgrin:
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I was just talking to a mate of mine last night who works for alfa and we got onto the subject of LSDs. (The alfa 147 Q2 is one of only two cars i have driven with a LSD that i actually liked how it performed the LSD that is)
We got talking about the Q2 automatic torque biasing diff in alfas and the told me it can be bought as an accessory from Alfa parts department as a reto fit to fit to most there models. When i told him how much the quaife was i got the responce HOW MUCH! and he went on to say the alfa ones less than £300! or less than £500 fitted to say i was suprised is an understatment. Come on VW if there only going to be that much fit them as standard!
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I was at the Honda Dealership on Saturday and their Civic Type R championship edition has an ATB LSD fitted to it too. Numbered Plaque, White alloys and a few other bits are also fitted and the cost - £500 more than the stock Type R :surprised:
P!sses me off too that VW couldn't do something like this. :sad:
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^^^^
The Japs understand the market for such versions much better than the Europeans. Just look at all the toys many performance Japanese cars come with straight out of the box.
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Some E-diffs are actually quite crude, for example the one on the 135i simply works by detecting spin and then it applies the brake to the inside wheel.
I guess we'll have to wait and see with the MKVI.
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Here's a pic of the Quaife DSG diff (left) and the VW oem DSG diff (right).
Illyun's Quaife and jonnyc's (I think) stock diff.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR-QuaifevsStock.jpg&hash=85cb32e5e087be1e49947c848df75d300e5228d2)
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Thanks for that Robin... Looking very good :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :party: :party: :party:
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LOL - are you living there at the minute RR?
I was speaking to Mark today as it happens regarding some brakes (long story, I'll start a thread) and I cannot give him enough praise. He's gone out of his way to help me over the past few days. I'm hoping to get a spin in their car at some point, so I can see what I'm missing and have even greater LSD envy!!!
Everyone's cars are in safe hands for sure!
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LOL - are you living there at the minute RR?
.... :laugh: Their garage is somewhat larger than mine!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FRED_RLgarage.jpg&hash=cda6b5c6c015db9861eab1da0ab288d448e3bac8)
I was speaking to Mark today as it happens regarding some brakes (long story, I'll start a thread) and I cannot give him enough praise. He's gone out of his way to help me over the past few days. I'm hoping to get a spin in their car at some point, so I can see what I'm missing and have even greater LSD envy!!!
Everyone's cars are in safe hands for sure!
....Yep, Mark and his team are genuine car enthusiasts and know a heck of a lot about the Mk5 platform. Very straight speaking, very honest, very skilled and very experienced - You just need to accept that they're not a shop/retailer and their priority is always racing and so fit in with their (sometimes changing) schedules and they'll make no difference in the service they give you whether you're spending £200 or £20,000.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FScirocco_wiring.jpg&hash=b05410eb09a89248fa7ea039138818f8b8e88b51)
:rolleye: :rolleye: :rolleye: :rolleye:
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I hope thats not part of the Quaife LSD install procedure :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Brilliant write up! On my list of to do's without a shadow of a doubt. I believe
my Cupra manual box would be the same as Edition30? Like someone above
mentioned its just a case of BBS or Diff 1st!
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Brilliant write up! On my list of to do's without a shadow of a doubt. I believe
my Cupra manual box would be the same as Edition30? Like someone above
mentioned its just a case of BBS or Diff 1st!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FVWR_RedCupra.jpg&hash=6d941fa30923019295eae55f1a45a342f9008c20)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FMods%2FPlatoSeat.jpg&hash=14957890fa5e195c351817fad932b7a3a6e674c2)
^^ As you can see, VWRacing are familiar - It's basically the same platform as you know.
Give Mark Farmer a call on 01908 210088 and he'll be happy to tell you what he can or can't do.
:happy2:
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I need those arches! :grin:
Think its going to have to be the wheels or the diff for now as Iv spent far too
much over the past 6months!
Where are they based? May well speak to them about diff / clutch work.
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^^^^
Personally I'd choose the diff before wheels without any hesitation, even on a standard car.
It's not quattro but it sure does help!
VWRacing/RacingLine are in Milton Keynes.
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Tough choice! Like to add a bit of style to the leon... Hmmm
Going to speak to a guy i know with a stage 3 leon (Big turbo, rods/pistons, water/meth etc..) He has quaffe and puts it to regular use at brands hatch, will get his verdict too..
No doubt a top upgrade
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Tough choice! Like to add a bit of style to the leon... Hmmm
Going to speak to a guy i know with a stage 3 leon (Big turbo, rods/pistons, water/meth etc..) He has quaffe and puts it to regular use at brands hatch, will get his verdict too..
....Somehow I think I know what he's gonna say.
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Me too, lol. Actually found him on here, DanGB. A renowned serial modder on Seatcupra.net, top dude.
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_INK%2FYouKnowYouWantTo.jpg&hash=300d7ccce563c38ea613471d64a7c2679e38fcde)
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(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_INK%2FYouKnowYouWantTo.jpg&hash=300d7ccce563c38ea613471d64a7c2679e38fcde)
Is this one of those trick images that if you stare at it long enough and close your eyes, you'ill still be able to see it :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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Is this one of those trick images that if you stare at it long enough and close your eyes, you'ill still be able to see it :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
.... :signLOL: :laugh: :signLOL: :laugh: :signLOL: ^ Excellent!!
I've been rumbled :wink:. It worked on you though didn't it! :evilgrin:
:happy2:
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Is this one of those trick images that if you stare at it long enough and close your eyes, you'ill still be able to see it :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
.... :signLOL: :laugh: :signLOL: :laugh: :signLOL: ^ Excellent!!
I've been rumbled :wink:. It worked on you though didn't it! :evilgrin:
:happy2:
Yeah, I fell for it... Its worse at night when I try to go to sleep and the only image I can see is .... :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :evilgrin:
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Red, I was wondering whether you had a break down of costs, part/labour?
Thanks :happy2:
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Red, I was wondering whether you had a break down of costs, part/labour?
Thanks :happy2:
....I doubt very much if they would supply without fitting but contact Mark if you want more details, he's very helpful and not a salesman.
Manual = total £1,238.16 (incl vat, incl fitting) of which £709.41 is the Quaife (incl vat).
DSG = total £1,461.41 (incl vat, incl fitting) of which £932.66 is the Quaife (incl vat).
Includes DSG oil service etc.
HTH :happy2:
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While I'm in this thread, I'd just like to add that I continue to extremely happy with this mod and it's contribution to my handling together with the VWR-KW-V3 suspension and setup.
I recently went for a drive with a friend who's an ex VW mechanic and let him drive and he's used to performance cars and particularly loves Audi's. He made the comment that it was relatively unusual for someone to put so much into modding the handling and that most were just on a quest for more power but he now understood how it made the car so nice to drive and that when I wanted to sell the car he was seriously interested.
I know the Quaife is not a cheap mod but it does transform the FWD and in a way in which you can enjoy feeling it work without it kicking you.
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Amd Essex has 1 dif on offer i anybody interested :happy2:
Hi
Here is a cheap deal for a Quaife diff for Leon Cupra 2.0T- a must have mod for front wheel drive big power turbo cars.
Normally we would supply and fit this for £1200inc vat.
We have an exchange gearbox used for about 100 miles from our racecar.
Fitted in your car, exchange, for £750+vat.
.
Cheers Shaun.
Thought it might be of some use to somebody
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^^^^
Interesting that AmD's supply and fit price (assuming a Manual) is very close to VWR's.
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Yes Amd price is for a manual
Also new price for a Peloquin diff into a mk2 leon cupra comes out at £1164.70 inc vat from Jabbasport supply and fit
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^^^^
Yes, the Peloquin is known to be slightly cheaper but word on the street is that it's harsher and noisier than the Quaife and so more suitable for a track rather than a road car.
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^^^^
Yes, the Peloquin is known to be slightly cheaper but word on the street is that it's harsher and noisier than the Quaife and so more suitable for a track rather than a road car.
As far as I understand the Peloquin is an american copy of the ATB diff from Quaife, nothing trick with it.. Go Quaife! :happy2:
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Autotech also do their new wavetrac diff. Allegedly better than the Quaife.
A bit of reading for you.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3835523
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^^^^
I've heard by word of mouth that the Penguin is an American copy too but I wasn't 100% sure so I haven't said so.
The Quaife is extremely smooth and very fast to respond - Couldn't be better imo.
Ooops! Hurdy has just posted some bedtime reading!
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Autotech also do their new wavetrac diff. Allegedly better than the Quaife.
A bit of reading for you.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3835523
Thats going to act more like a race plate diff, with ramps etc.. There angle is that there diff will always be engaged effectively, meaning that there is never a situation with low torque that you would find yourself spinning up the inside wheel..
The thing is that the whole reason I went for a Quaife diff was that under normal driving you dont have to constantly deal with the car wandering around, constant throttle, or off throttle it acts like an open diff, meaning that its very easy to cruise, ultimately not as fast to react as a plate diff.. but if you want to go with a plate diff do expect to be dealing with the consequences whenever your not on a billiard table smooth surface..
The ATB Quaife diff is certainly a compromise, but I know I would get bored of having a proper race diff in a road car
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^^^^
That's very helpful to know, Jonny :happy2:
I've got zero experience of any race plate diff but I certainly appreciate how the Quaife works on uneven surfaces and sudden changes of direction or change of camber, and it feels very reassuring and without any dramas. As a road driver, that's what I think I prefer.
I've now driven 3 different Mk5 GTI's each fitted with the Quaife (2 DSG and 1 Manual) and find the Quaife equally effective in all of them and in a variety of road surface conditions due to weather.
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^^^^
That's very helpful to know, Jonny :happy2:
I've got zero experience of any race plate diff but I certainly appreciate how the Quaife works on uneven surfaces and sudden changes of direction or change of camber, and it feels very reassuring and without any dramas. As a road driver, that's what I think I prefer.
I've now driven 3 different Mk5 GTI's each fitted with the Quaife (2 DSG and 1 Manual) and find the Quaife equally effective in all of them and in a variety of road surface conditions due to weather.
Dont get me wrong, a plate diff would be miles more effective than the ATB diff round a track, but how often can / do you get any where near the limit on the road
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Im getting more and more tempted to get a diff now :evilgrin:. Booking the car in at vwr for sachs clutch and shortshift kit. Think im better going with coilovers before i go for a diff though :confused:.
Are you still getting rid of your coilies jonny? :smiley:
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Im getting more and more tempted to get a diff now :evilgrin:. Booking the car in at vwr for sachs clutch and shortshift kit. Think im better going with coilovers before i go for a diff though :confused:.
Are you still getting rid of your coilies jonny? :smiley:
I planning on selling them yes, just to get something more suited for track etc..
To be honest mate, the suspension will make more of a difference to how the car feels than the diff. The diff is a fantastic thing to do once your happy with everything else, its just like bolting on a load of grip out of the corners!!
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Drop me a text when your thinking of selling the coilies :happy2:
I think the diff will be better for me in the summer, tc took me in his gti and his had kw V2'S, they had a stock like ride and the car handled very well :driver:
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luca have you seen nobber is sellin his V3's
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Thanks for the reply Robin, was just asking as the Quaife's for the mk5 GTI are around $900 in the states.
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Thanks for the reply Robin, was just asking as the Quaife's for the mk5 GTI are around $900 in the states.
Matt, they are much the same price in the UK, once you have taken delivery and import duty into account.
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Yeah seemingly so. :smiley:
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luca have you seen nobber is sellin his V3's
....Why? Does he find the ride too hard for his (or his missus) liking?
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Hes changing his car red :wink:
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^^^^
That's very helpful to know, Jonny :happy2:
I've got zero experience of any race plate diff but I certainly appreciate how the Quaife works on uneven surfaces and sudden changes of direction or change of camber, and it feels very reassuring and without any dramas. As a road driver, that's what I think I prefer.
I've now driven 3 different Mk5 GTI's each fitted with the Quaife (2 DSG and 1 Manual) and find the Quaife equally effective in all of them and in a variety of road surface conditions due to weather.
Dont get me wrong, a plate diff would be miles more effective than the ATB diff round a track, but how often can / do you get any where near the limit on the road
With a plate diff, you need to maintain it regularly. The Plates need renewing, timescale according to use. Not really viable, unless pockets are very deep. I was told they are a lot harsher in operation too.
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With a plate diff, you need to maintain it regularly. The Plates need renewing, timescale according to use. Not really viable, unless pockets are very deep. I was told they are a lot harsher in operation too.
....According what Wavetrac manufacturer Autotech say on VWvotex forum:
"You will not need to change the friction plates. The friction plates will last a very very long time. If it does wear, it will not affect the performance of the differential as it will still create friction againts the house like a standard torque biasing differential. The real improvement is the "wave" gear in the differential which creates a no-load biasing ratio."
So perhaps the need to renew plates is no longer a consideration, but Jonny's experience suggests that they are not best used in a road car, even a very fast road car. The young Yankee dudes with their highly modded GTI's won't be phased though!
The Quaife ATB version is surprisingly (to me) smooooth, regardless of the host car's power. The VWR 330bhp Red Temptress is totally comfortable with the Quaife. In fact I'm sure she'd be much more of a handful without it!
Okay, I'm singing the Quaife's praises without the personal experience of other alternatives, but it's not very difficult to see how well and smoothly it performs on a fast FWD road car. You don't notice it's there unless you are both 'making progress' and focussed on your driving and valuable feedback from the car.
I think it was you, Dave, and also implied by Jonny in this thread, that it's the driver rather than the car which has limits (Mark at VWR has also said this) and it's safer to have a car which can perform beyond your limits - Providing of course that you also apply the addage of "With Power Comes Responsibility". I hope I'm making sense as I just spill these thoughts out.
I've said it before and I still think it's true that every FWD car of 2.0litres and more, really needs a diff - Even VW acknowledge this by their addition of their electronic diff on the Mk6, and Renault, and the new Ford RS with an ATB Quaife.
:happy2:
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Picked up The Falcon ( my GTI) today after getting a Quaife ATB fitted. First impressions are very positive. The Falcon's running Revo st 2 so traction has been an issue, but with the new diff can now exit roundabouts in 2nd on full throttle!! :jumpmove:
Today was bone dry though so am looking forward to some rain for once so I can fully test the diff's potential. :jumping:
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^^^^
Great isn't it! :happy2: 8) :happy2:
Where did you get yours fitted?
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^^ Yeah, I'm loving it. :laugh:
Got it fitted by Kenneth Brown Motor Engineering here in Glasgow. He was recommended to me and I was impressed by both his customer service and some of the other cars my golf was sharing work space with. Today he had a Gallardo Superlegga in the workshop! :love: :drool: :love:
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^^^^
Great! Sounds good for those located far north.
Manual or DSG? (sorry for all the questions)
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^^ It's a manual so a much simpler job. Although I got the impression he would be happy to fit a diff on a DSG car.
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how much have you guys paid for this lsd inc fitting? mines a manual, i want to get a figure so i can get a price from someone nearer to me
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how much have you guys paid for this lsd inc fitting? mines a manual, i want to get a figure so i can get a price from someone nearer to me
....It's all there in my original post if you read it. And it obviously depends whether you have Manual or DSG.
Budget £1,500 for DSG and about £1,200 for Manual but choose carefully and not just on price.
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ok cheers, i really am gonna have to pull my finger out and get this done. i had £1500 going round my mind but £1200 sounds excellent. nearer to a grand, iam trying to convince my self :wink:
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....
If you plan to keep your GTI and occasionally enjoy spirited driving when conditions safely allow (or do track days), then it's a great mod and one you will not regret.
The trouble is that it works even better with well setup coilover suspension and so goes the slippery slope of modding - Beware!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2FRedRobin_05%2FRED_INK%2FYouKnowYouWantTo.jpg&hash=300d7ccce563c38ea613471d64a7c2679e38fcde)
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^^ Mine came out at pretty much dead on £1200. That picture brainwashes me a little more each time I see it. :jumping:
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Had Quaiffe's in my previous 2 Golf...brilliant.
Will wait and see how my car progresses after re map and WALK.
I may head straight into APR Stage 2 with APR fuel pump....so much to do though :scared:
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After what can only be described as an 'enthusiastic' drive to/from Silverstone last Sunday, I was made fully aware of just how badly my car needs a Quaife diff.......so I have decided to save up for one!!! :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove:
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^^^^
Relatively expensive and subtle as they are, they are a very helpful and satisfying mod.
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After what can only be described as an 'enthusiastic' drive to/from Silverstone last Sunday, I was made fully aware of just how badly my car needs a Quaife diff.......so I have decided to save up for one!!! :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove: :jumpmove:
Lol, are you sure it's not just the nut behind the steering wheel that needs changing? :smiley:
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Hahaha! Most probably that as well yes! To be honest, I thought that after the GTI it may be a long while before I own another FWD car again, and I really want to experience owning a FWD with a limited-slip diff. Combined with the many situations where I've lost traction accelerating out of the corner, I think it will be a great addition to the car!
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....
You ought to have a drive of mine when we next meet up, Chris.
If you go to VWR, DON'T go anywhere near The Red Temptress!! She has a Quaife as well as many other goodies you wouldn't want.
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I've been using Quaiffe diffs for years.
My APR Stage 3 + Golf had one as did my MK2 16 valve with 200bhp+.
I found the diff was more efective in the MK2 than the MKIV as eventually running 350 + was too much for FWD.
Finding the limits in the MKIV on road use was difficult as the power came in later but on track the diff was helpful on road tyres until they heated up then it washed wide especially at Quarry Castle Combe....it still posted 1.20-1.22 last year on road rubber..GSD3 F1's.
I personally found it was far better utilised when I ran Intermediate tyre in particular I ran VW Cup Dunlop DO1j's.
The MK2 being lighter with better camber adjustment available was better suited to a diff.
I suspect that the MK5 running a WALK kit will be likewise. The earlier thump of power is ultimately better distributed and deployed with a good sticky rubber compound and running with a diff.
I suspect with my Ed 30 I will initially after speaking to Jim at Awesome and VWR will run Stage 1 a WALK kit some big brakes and some sticky rubber for track usage on stock suspension as I feel at this stage is pretty good. Later some KW's/ARB's and some polybushing 'may' follow budget dependant.
I reckon on the map and WALK kit and brakes and good rubber I will see about 1.20-1.22 a lap at Combe
My concern is that I wanted to keep it stock :signLOL:
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Haha. LOL
Keep it stock and visiting a forum like this one don't go together :grin:
Quaife.....sooon. :jumping:
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Haha. LOL
Keep it stock and visiting a forum like this one don't go together :grin:
Quaife.....sooon. :jumping:
:wink: :jumpmove: :driver:
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Just had mine fitted with a Quaife and I must honestly say that it has made a superb difference to the characteristics of the car's grip and handling. I can see what all the fuss is about with diff's on the Focus RS and R26R now :happy2: :driver:
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can everyone stop making me really want a diff ive just spent a load of money this week on my car cant afford any more luxuries!! :xmaspresent:
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Hurdy, hear is an odd question for you, how much does the diff part weigh do you know???
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2 lines of comment John :sad1: ....................
we need more feedback :jumpmove:
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....
I have just added info in my original first post under the headings of : -
Why not use a traditional, plate style limited-slip differential?
PLATE-STYLE LIMITED SLIP DIFFS:
THE QUAIFE ATB DIFF:
Positive Dynamic Effects:
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you gonna add a bit about the wavetrac too RR ?
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you gonna add a bit about the wavetrac too RR ?
....I can't really comment much about it without any experience of it but I've added a link under OTHER VERSIONS.
Cheers :drinking:
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Hurdy, hear is an odd question for you, how much does the diff part weigh do you know???
I didn't weigh it, but it didn't feel much heavier than the OEM open diff :happy2:
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2 lines of comment John :sad1: ....................
we need more feedback :jumpmove:
Here you are....
It rocks!
Sooooo good I can't believe I didn't fit it months ago. Bonus is that it is a safety feature as well as a performance feature
Get one if you have the means :happy2:
I'll do a more in-depth write up once I've had a little more time with it. :driver:
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Hurdy, hear is an odd question for you, how much does the diff part weigh do you know???
I didn't weigh it, but it didn't feel much heavier than the OEM open diff :happy2:
....We weighed it at VWR. IIRC there was only about 10 lb in it.
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Hurdy, hear is an odd question for you, how much does the diff part weigh do you know???
I didn't weigh it, but it didn't feel much heavier than the OEM open diff :happy2:
....We weighed it at VWR. IIRC there was only about 10 lb in it.
You mean I've added weight :surprised:
At least it is low down so should help with the C.O.G. :laugh:
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Guys I am considering a diff on my DSG MK5 GTI quite soon but i'm wondering, from people that have had these installed, does the steering feel snatchy at all?? Does the car drag you across lanes when accelerating hard? I have only ever driven 2 cars with quaife diffs and both times I really didnt like it. The steering felt like it was dragging me, rather then me steering the car and every time i went to change gear whilst still on part throttle the steering would snatch out of my hand either left or right depending on where the most grip was at the time.
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Guys I am considering a diff on my DSG MK5 GTI quite soon but i'm wondering, from people that have had these installed, does the steering feel snatchy at all?? Does the car drag you across lanes when accelerating hard? I have only ever driven 2 cars with quaife diffs and both times I really didnt like it. The steering felt like it was dragging me, rather then me steering the car and every time i went to change gear whilst still on part throttle the steering would snatch out of my hand either left or right depending on where the most grip was at the time.
....No snatching and no dragging in the way you describe on my Golf GTI Mk5.
You do feel pulled around coners when 'on it' but that's in a good way.
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Can vouch honestly for Wavetrac. Bought it on JKM's advice and they weren't wrong. Very smooth operation & very progressive. If I felt I had wasted my money I'd say so but on balance I haven't driven another LSD equipped FWD car. If you fit one get a track done asap afterwards. :driver: