MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: Hurdy on September 14, 2009, 05:13:18 pm
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Upgraded the rear brakes this afternoon. Managed to get hold of some S3 rears - not painted yet and quite like the look of the black with the wheels anyway at this point.
Fitted straight on, but unfortunately the S3 disc guards wouldn't fit, so I've ordered some Cupra ones that will.
First opinion is that the rear is a lot more stable under hard braking. The extra grip of the R888's along with the braking power of the TAROX 10 pots meant that the rear became under braked power-wise and was trying to overtake the front-end/squirm wide on hard use. Now the rears seem a much better balanced. :jumpmove:
Pics not great, but you get the idea. :smiley:
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ft8%2Fhurdy_album%2FS3rearbrakes006.jpg&hash=74d9cb4405effdd4afeceaaffb4d6806a6697858)
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Ft8%2Fhurdy_album%2FS3rearbrakes005.jpg&hash=7982b978e019a7f2cc4d3c4968429035d00b87a1)
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did you fit them yourself john? loooking nice
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did you fit them yourself john? loooking nice
Watched on as Craig at Stattlers slotted them on for me!
They don't need ANY adapting at all. :smiley:
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John,
Good news. The Ed30 guards fit with a little bit of tweaking (bending them slightly out of the way, as in my thread.........
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2113.0 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2113.0)
Glad someone else has verified that the rear feels more stable with S3 rear brakes fitted.
:happy2: :happy2:
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I've had a set of these for months. I need to get round to fitting them!
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John,
Good news. The Ed30 guards fit with a little bit of tweaking (bending them slightly out of the way, as in my thread.........
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2113.0 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2113.0)
Glad someone else has verified that the rear feels more stable with S3 rear brakes fitted.
:happy2: :happy2:
I guess the better brakes do make a difference that's why they are fitted to the Leon Cupra R. :happy2:
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:congrats: nicely done mate
big brakes...light wheels...dodgy tyres :party: :grin:
i call shotgun!
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John,
Good news. The Ed30 guards fit with a little bit of tweaking (bending them slightly out of the way, as in my thread.........
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2113.0 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2113.0)
Glad someone else has verified that the rear feels more stable with S3 rear brakes fitted.
:happy2: :happy2:
I guess the better brakes do make a difference that's why they are fitted to the Leon Cupra R. :happy2:
I agree Ian.
:happy2:
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:congrats: nicely done mate
big brakes...light wheels...dodgy tyres :party: :grin:
i call shotgun!
You'll need to get your name back on the 'ring trip then :happy2:
Also whilst I was there I asked about the pads on the front as they look a little low. Looks like they would last for the 'ring, but I was told that Spa would kill them in a few laps as it is such a high speed track with very demanding braking areas!!
So I've enquired about some proper race pads specifically for the trip :evilgrin:
Also looks like the front wishbones will be swapped out for some TT ones like JonnyC's to dial in a little negative camber and topped off with a dose of full corner weight set-up. :jumping: :driver:
The bad expensive news is that I appear to have completely killed my front AND rear Eibach suspension as all 4 struts are leaking, so it looks like some Bilstein's or KW's are going on sometime before the trip too :rolleye:
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Hurdy, will you take me for a spin when your car is done :driver:
As long as you dont kill me :happy2:
400+bhp is quite something !
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Hurdy, will you take me for a spin when your car is done :driver:
As long as you dont kill me :happy2:
400+bhp is quite something !
Sure will Rich.
Looks like the ED30 will be a stripped out track slag quicker than I thought now the R20 looks the biz :wink:
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Just a quick update as a word of caution.
The rear upgrade is perfect for my front brake set-up to REGAIN the balance between the front and back. The front was slightly overbraked with the TAROX upgrade and the S3 upgrade simply redresses the balance at a higher level than before. Upgrading the rear only (in my opinion) isn't necessary and the front needs to be significantly upgraded before the rear needs attention :happy2:
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Just a quick update as a word of caution.
The rear upgrade is perfect for my front brake set-up to REGAIN the balance between the front and back. The front was slightly overbraked with the TAROX upgrade and the S3 upgrade simply redresses the balance at a higher level than before. Upgrading the rear only (in my opinion) isn't necessary and the front needs to be significantly upgraded before the rear needs attention :happy2:
....Aha! Not just in your opinion but, in different words, this is what AP were telling me when they said I didn't need to change my oem rear brakes with their AP 4-pots on the front.
8)
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Just a quick update as a word of caution.
The rear upgrade is perfect for my front brake set-up to REGAIN the balance between the front and back. The front was slightly overbraked with the TAROX upgrade and the S3 upgrade simply redresses the balance at a higher level than before. Upgrading the rear only (in my opinion) isn't necessary and the front needs to be significantly upgraded before the rear needs attention :happy2:
....Aha! Not just in your opinion but, in different words, this is what AP were telling me when they said I didn't need to change my oem rear brakes with their AP 4-pots on the front.
8)
Lots of opinions here, my findings are that with the full S3 Set up, mine is just right. Just my findings, and this has been mentioned to me when my car was worked on recently by a very reputable organisation, in fact they were very impressed by the feel, initial bite, and effectiveness. Now I am not saying that they will cope with lap after lap of the ring, but what brakes can, apart from a full set of bespoke track (not road) brakes.
The full S3/R32 is a very cost effective and well developed OEM road set up, which is developed by the factory for use on a car of similar weight and chassis (Audi S3 or seat Cupra anyone......). they may not look as sexy as AP's etc, but IMHO bang per buck, road set up they are great.
The full S3 set up offers a far more cost effective braking system, and in most circumstances, i dfeel would be adequate for use on the road, with the odd foray on the track. You will spend sub £500 for a full set if you shop wisely, rather than £1000's on bespoke road brakes.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themagicattic.co.uk%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2F2p.jpg&hash=b5db68a5ce710be94d740cfd1259d2b65801b579)
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^^^^
A very large and golden tuppence there, QD!
I don't think that anyone is claiming that one brake setup beats all others. As you say: Lots of opinions and several combinations which work extremely well for different people and different uses. And which suit different depths of pockets.
:happy2:
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^^^^
A very large and golden tuppence there, QD!
I don't think that anyone is claiming that one brake setup beats all others. As you say: Lots of opinions and several combinations which work extremely well for different people and different uses.
:happy2:
Good job it wasn't the golden rivet..................................
Ps modding fever has struck the bike.................................. :evilgrin: Exhaust, bits and bobs of carbon, and new levers en route................. :evilgrin:
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You're right in what you say about the S3 set-up. Very cost effective and probably as much as anyone on road will ever need. Let's hope the brakes on the R20 are multi-pot and vented at the rear from the start. :party:
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Right when I thought the AP 6 pot BBK i just picked up was going to be enough you go and post this sh*t Hurdy :wink:
Is this the full vented rear setup?
I'd like to have all my brakes sorted in one hit, but would rather buy an S3 kit in red.
... does that mean chasing down a Cupra R rear set?
I'd rather not get stuck into painting an S3 setup.
Excuse my ignorance on it - SEATs aren't sold here in Australia anymore, so this sort of upgrade will be coming from the UK for me.
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Hi Tinto,
Yes it is the full S3 set-up including the 310mm vented discs, carriers, calipers and pads :happy2:
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Right when I thought the AP 6 pot BBK i just picked up was going to be enough you go and post this sh*t Hurdy :wink:
Is this the full vented rear setup?
I'd like to have all my brakes sorted in one hit, but would rather buy an S3 kit in red.
... does that mean chasing down a Cupra R rear set?
I'd rather not get stuck into painting an S3 setup.
Excuse my ignorance on it - SEATs aren't sold here in Australia anymore, so this sort of upgrade will be coming from the UK for me.
sorry to dissapoint you, after i read this tread, i've had a look at a danish leon cupra, it had r32 frontbrakes, (which i also has installed on my mk v), but the rear breakes was the same as the gti, so you need to locate r 32 or s3 rear brakes to get the 312mm vented discs, sorry mate. Just get them powdercoated red, that's what i plan to do :happy2:
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No worries, thanks for the clarification.
So there isn't a cupra R (k1?) that uses the r32/s3 rears?
There are a few options I can pursue including getting a rear r32 set out if the USA (world impex or the autotech kit etc), as the Aussie dollar is fairing better against the usd than the pound right now.
... I may be back to harrass you for a parts list hurdy :)
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Had this link bookmarked a while ago:
http://www.worldimpex.com//assets/partdocuments/DIY_Rear_310mm_R32-1.pdf
has a parts list for those interested in this mod.
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I was under the impression the Cupra R had vented discs. :confused:
Anyone know for sure?
The part number I have for the rear discs on a Cupra is 1K0 615 601M whereas the one in the above attachment is 1K0 615 601 N.
I had planned to add the Cupra R rears but would look a bit of a twit(sp) if they are the same as I already have. :ashamed:
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the r32 ones are 100% vented
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And the N is defo a 310 x 22m vented disc 112 x 5
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Sorry, should have put this in one post.
The M version Hedge, is the 286 mm 12mm thick solid disc you probably already have.
The N is the R32/Cupra/S3 one you want! ;)
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The N is the R32/Cupra/S3 one you want! ;)
So N is R32 and S3 only from what I can find and M is Cupra. So whichever way I go about this my painting skills are going to be needed. :sad1:
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Im not sure if Cupra got the 286mm solid disc or not, but the M is defo a 286mm solid disc
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Cupra has solid rear discs, or at least the one in my works car park certainly does! :wink:
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I found this courtesy of Awesome. http://www.awesome-gti.co.uk/product.php?xProd=13789&xSec=359
So painting required as well. Bummer.
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Yep, Just had a look at Etka, It seems the Cupra Only got the bigger Front brakes. it has 286mm solid rear brakes, which are the same as the GTI right?
Basically GTI + Cupra use this disc 1k0 615 601 M - 286mm solid
R32/S3/hurdy/me-soon - use this rear disc - 1k0 615 601 N - 310 x 22mm Vented disc
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i made the s3 rear shield s fit my eddy but i thought hurdy had bought some cupra rear shield that were bigger but fitted the 2wd rear suspension??
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Looks good behind the wheels. Someone needs to talk toast into doing this now! :P
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My understanding is that only the cupra k1 got 310/vented rears.
I was poking about in this thread:
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101133&highlight=Cupra
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My understanding is that only the cupra k1 got 310/vented rears.
I was poking about in this thread:
http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101133&highlight=Cupra
Get him to take a pic of his rears as the one in the thread is the front.
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Pretty sure my rear disks are vented.
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yep, for sure the S3 ones are vented
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The dust guards arrived for the cupra that I ordered.....and they fit behind the disks. Pity they aren't behind my disks as Steve Jr used them on his ED30 with the S3 rears. I can't see that the guards would be bigger and yet the disks on the K1 only like the GTI :confused:
Steve fitted the TTS brakes to the front of his car - they are slightly thicker than the S3 discs (showed me both together), but the TTS rears don't fit for some reason (said something about the bell housing being different.)
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I've just seen the pic on the Golfmk5 website and the K1 has solid rears. :sad1:
So I will have to buy R32/S3 rears and get them powder-coated should I decide to change. :sad1: :sad1:
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to be honest, unless you got them for a steal, i wouldnt bother!
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to be honest, unless you got them for a steal, i wouldnt bother!
Pretty sure my rear disks are vented.
I know where there is a set available until Sunday. :wink:
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bingo bango bongo!
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I've just seen the pic on the Golfmk5 website and the K1 has solid rears. :sad1:
So I will have to buy R32/S3 rears and get them powder-coated should I decide to change. :sad1: :sad1:
it sounds like that was a pic of a normal cupra, not the k1 he has now.
But Im heading towards an r32 set painted red too.
But it would be good to have a definitive answer / pic of the k1 rears for those of you that have easier access to Seat parts.
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I have found a cheep alternative to upgrading your rear brake calipers.
Since installing the heat resistant, polyvinyl chloride (pvc), self adhesive stickers I have found the rear braking to be far more stable and balanced. I am very pleased with the font size and colour and particularly impressed with the arrangement of the letters and the weight increase seems to have had no effect on handling.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi372.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo163%2Fneilmelvin%2FRed1.jpg&hash=9edbdcc8f9113413134b59a24b35e333ea467e15)
A word of caution try to match the front or you will look a right tit.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi372.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo163%2Fneilmelvin%2FBlackcaps.jpg&hash=e310bad48331687b29278b7d05f7f9ef5ecdad52)
Sorry John, this should have been in the new products section :signLOL:
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to be honest, unless you got them for a steal, i wouldnt bother!
Remember the trouble we had getting in last time
Pretty sure my rear disks are vented.
I know where there is a set available until Sunday. :wink:
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Nice upgrade Neil :grin:
Time to post on SCN for an answer I think! :happy2:
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PMSL @ Neil :congrats: :congrats: :grin: :grin: :grin:
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^^^^
:signLOL: @ Neil - You had me taken in when I first started reading your post.
Hurdy - Do you have a part # so I can order the appropriate (Cupra?) dust guards, please. [When I've bought my S3 rear brakes from DaveB]. Or is it easier to adapt/bend the existing guards as stokeballoon has?
Oh, and did you use braided hoses or the oem S3 ones?
:drinking:
P.S. - I've just found what T_T posted on the 'other' forum that fitting the S3 rears is a big No-No without work to axles or something. But you didn't have to do all that did you? PM me if you prefer.
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Robin, T_T was wrong. The S3's fit spot on. I had mine fitted within 2 hours and that was taking pics along the way.
DR
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fv211%2Fstokeballoon%2FDSCF0051.jpg&hash=f55e6c8d612efb2dc13ccaf457445dde2d433144)
How to
http://www.worldimpex.com//assets/partdocuments/DIY_Rear_310mm_R32-1.pdf (http://www.worldimpex.com//assets/partdocuments/DIY_Rear_310mm_R32-1.pdf)
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Cupra R bits.
LH SHIELD 1K0615611P
RH SHIELD 1K0615612P
These could have been superceded but should still get you what you want.
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^^^^
:signLOL: @ Neil - You had me taken in when I first started reading your post.
Hurdy - Do you have a part # so I can order the appropriate (Cupra?) dust guards, please. [When I've bought my S3 rear brakes from DaveB]. Or is it easier to adapt/bend the existing guards as stokeballoon has?
Oh, and did you use braided hoses or the oem S3 ones?
:drinking:
P.S. - I've just found what T_T posted on the 'other' forum that fitting the S3 rears is a big No-No without work to axles or something. But you didn't have to do all that did you? PM me if you prefer.
Just be sure you have the multistar bit in size 14 before you start, the carrier is fitted with these. :happy2:
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Cupra R bits.
LH SHIELD 1K0615611P
RH SHIELD 1K0615612P
These could have been superceded but should still get you what you want.
....Cheers Hedge :drinking:
I think I should be able to use the existing ones with some 'quality' coercion.
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....
IIRC someone posted to ask about weights. Using stokeballoon's quality link (R32 and S3 rears are the same) : -
Weight R32 Rotors, Calipers, Carriers & bolts (without pads) = 22.4 lbs / 10.2 kg
Weight OEM Rotors, Calipers, Carriers & bolts (without pads) = 17 lbs / 7.7 kg
So you are looking at a total of about 5 kg of extra weight but with the advantages of a ventilated and larger disc - All better for track days and to balance a big brake kit up front.
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I wouldn't necessarily say "better for track days" - that depends on how your car is set up and your style. It's certainly more re-assuring and balanced, but it won't make you quicker into a corner.
If you've got a set up biased to oversteer, the last thing you want is more rear brakes. As you're steaming into a corner on the brakes, you want as much force on the front tyres as possible to get the nose in. The back will come light into O/S and you use this to ever so gently slide it around behind you. Loose is fast, but with it comes risk.
If your braking is 'flat', you're more likely to push the nose wide as the rear has too much grip (like having more rear camber than front). This is more for people who like to scrub off speed in a straight line, come off the brakes, then turn in. Your loose man above will have braked later and will still be braking on turn in... but you run less risk of getting it wrong.
There's no better option, just different set ups suit different styles.
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that was my main reason for not going for them as i wan to see what mines going to be like on track with the new fronts on first
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that was my main reason for not going for them as i wan to see what mines going to be like on track with the new fronts on first
Think we ALL wanna see what your new fronts are going to be like..... :happy2:
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I wouldn't necessarily say "better for track days" - that depends on how your car is set up and your style. It's certainly more re-assuring and balanced, but it won't make you quicker into a corner.
If you've got a set up biased to oversteer, the last thing you want is more rear brakes. As you're steaming into a corner on the brakes, you want as much force on the front tyres as possible to get the nose in. The back will come light into O/S and you use this to ever so gently slide it around behind you. Loose is fast, but with it comes risk.
If your braking is 'flat', you're more likely to push the nose wide as the rear has too much grip (like having more rear camber than front). This is more for people who like to scrub off speed in a straight line, come off the brakes, then turn in. Your loose man above will have braked later and will still be braking on turn in... but you run less risk of getting it wrong.
There's no better option, just different set ups suit different styles.
....Excellent point, Mike :happy2:
I was over simplifying and thinking more of the ventitillation of the S3/R32 rear discs being 'better'. "Better" is such a subjective term anyway.
My style is to do all my braking before the corner and while still in a straight line if I can - My thinking being not to risk unbalancing the car so much. My suspension, lighter wheels, and Quaife, all assist my exit from corners, but they are only an assistance and I'm taking notice of what you're saying.
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that was my main reason for not going for them as i wan to see what mines going to be like on track with the new fronts on first
Think we ALL wanna see what your new fronts are going to be like..... :happy2:
me toooo :laugh: bloody hurry up vwr i need them big time :laugh:
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Oh yeah, no question on the vented part.
I might overcook it and slide out wide on exit with opposite lock, mean while you'll have nipped down the inside on exit and be away - like I say different styles, different results.
You should get someone to teach you how to use O/S though, I'm still learning, but it's a proper adrenalin rush when you get it right.
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Oh yeah, no question on the vented part.
I might overcook it and slide out wide on exit with opposite lock, mean while you'll have nipped down the inside on exit and be away - like I say different styles, different results.
You should get someone to teach you how to use O/S though, I'm still learning, but it's a proper adrenalin rush when you get it right.
....On one of my laps at Spa with the instructor in the passenger seat (complaining in jest that I had a Schroth harness but he didn't!) I had been (politely) harassing a Porsche 944 who wasn't over inclined to let a Golf past methinks, and I was able to nip down his inside at the Bus Stop chicane and out accelerate him into the long straight (it was wet and I had a tyre advantage too).
I love a touch of oversteer too - Moments of it in the new S4 Avant (with Sports differential option) I borrowed and also recently in an Evo X (stunning at self-correction) are memories which stay with me - Great fun! Part of me feels sorry for people who don't enjoy their driving.
I have much to learn though - Even at 62yo, perhaps more so.
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So If you have an expensive Big Brake Kit on the front, then the S3 rears are a good balance?
I am upgrading to S3 Front brakes, but I am gonna leave the rears as standard 280's. Is this the correct balance for S3 fronts? I was going to get S3 rears, but since the car isn't 4wd the S3 rears might be too much.......is that right? :ashamed:
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^^^^
I have asked very similar questions in other threads discussing brakes (and possibly even in this thread somewhere) - Experts DaveB and tony_danza both agree that if you have a big brake kit on the front of a GTI/Ed30 and if you also prefer to do your braking before a bend while still in a straight line, then the S3 rears is a very good balance.
I'll be fitting my S3 rear brakes later this month.
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my car has full s3 fronts and rears and they are bang on....my asrta had alcon 4pots and i must say the s3 set up isnt far of for a fraction of the cost..im in no rush to change these
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^^^^
I have asked very similar questions in other threads discussing brakes (and possibly even in this thread somewhere) - Experts DaveB and tony_danza both agree that if you have a big brake kit on the front of a GTI/Ed30 and if you also prefer to do your braking before a bend while still in a straight line, then the S3 rears is a very good balance.
I'll be fitting my S3 rear brakes later this month.
But Robin, Would you add S3 rears if all you had up front were S3 fronts?
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I believe it would be borderline whether or not to fit S3 rears when you have S3 fronts.
The Cupra makes do with GTI rears and has Cupra/R32/S3 fronts.
If you do trackdays then maybe it is worth it as the S3 rears are ventilated and should help cooling the brakes and pads under heavy useage.
With grippy tyres and a BBK front upgrade, then the S3 rears are definitely worth it :happy2:
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^^^^Cheers John, I thought it was something to do with brake bias and whatnot? :ashamed: and the fact that the S3 is 4wd so it needs bigger rears than the 2wd golf?
......or I could be talking poo? :sad1:
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^^^^Cheers John, I thought it was something to do with brake bias and whatnot? :ashamed: and the fact that the S3 is 4wd so it needs bigger rears than the 2wd golf?
......or I could be talking poo? :sad1:
You are right Monte :happy2:
Although it isn't the fact that the S3 is 4WD, it is more to do with the extra weight in the car due to the 4WD.
Brake bias will alter with bigger brakes, but remember that if you are fitting bigger brakes on the front and leave the rears as they are, you are still altering the bias to the fronts, If you feel that the rear is a little "lively" (ie the rear moves more in comparison to before the upgrade) under braking when the fronts have been changed to the S3's then you can always fit the S3 rears at a later date. :happy2:
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So no ones had any problems fitting S3 brakes front and rear??
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No :jumping:
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No x 2 :driver:
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john....
your new sig makes out like you've becoming a tuner or summat offering all those brands :signLOL:
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Only a small part of what Hurdy offers via his on car samples :happy2:
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i ve just read this thread and did nt even realize the S3 had ventilated rear disc s !!! when you actually add up the better parts on the S3 makes you think they re not really bad value for money :happy2:
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john....
your new sig makes out like you've becoming a tuner or summat offering all those brands :signLOL:
:grin:
I may have to alter it a little :signLOL:
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i have the vwr bbk on mine with std rears and must admit the rear feels like a dog wagging it tail . thats why i have some r32s in the post :)