Author Topic: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me  (Read 1009 times)

Offline Jgavin1

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To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« on: July 26, 2018, 07:56:45 PM »
Hi all. Had my edition 30 for a few months ago and I’m either considering selling it or going the full 2+. Originally bought the car cheap with intention of selling but I actually really like it :( even coming from an e92 m3 I prefer it in many ways.

Anyway it already has intake, full exhaust and rev G diverter valve. I understand ideally I’d need a clutch to take a stage 2 from there so can anyone recommend somewhere in Scotland to have that done and how much roughly ? And if I’m going to the extreme of doing clutches might I be as well getting the hpfp to go full 2+?

Really stuck here guys so could anyone persuade me and/or  give me an idea of costs to do all this ? Oh and car is on 88k so would it safely take it ?

Thanks

Offline neilw

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 10:06:52 AM »
You'll need a HPFP, Intercooler (s3), RS4 fuel valve and Mapping.. For that, you'd be looking at between £1000 and £2500 depending if you get second-hand parts, fit them yourself ect

After that, you'll probably need a clutch - £500-£1000

Then you'll probably need bigger brakes and handling mods. £500 to unlimited

Edition30 #0002
Powervalve TBE | Eibach Sportline Springs | DV+ | Revo Intake
Coming soon Bilstine B8's | S3 Brakes | Alloy Hubs & Arms | W-ALK

Offline colesey

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 10:39:10 AM »
Another option would be to sell your exhaust / inlet and go back to stock items with a stage 1 map. That would be cashflow neutral and give a responsive @300bhp / tq. Put @£1k into suspension & brakes upgrades to have a well balanced package. Ecotune seem to be the go-to tuners in Scotland though I suspect there are other decent options.

Offline neilw

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2018, 11:02:06 AM »
That's I good idea. You could just get it mapped as it is, without any extra hardware. Going from 300 to 340+ is a big jump in costs.

I don't plan to put a HPFP on mine, just a map eventually.
Edition30 #0002
Powervalve TBE | Eibach Sportline Springs | DV+ | Revo Intake
Coming soon Bilstine B8's | S3 Brakes | Alloy Hubs & Arms | W-ALK

Offline Shoduchi

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 11:21:03 AM »
I can say that I had my car with stage 2+ bits fitted and stock map making 270 CV on the dyno. I ran the car with that power a lot of time. Later I had a remap done but it was very conservative (low boost) so the car only made 355 CV with an octane booster. Without it the engine made ~342 CV. I wasn't happy with the way it handled so got a different remap that increased the boost to stage 2+ levels and it made 367 CV. Only then I really enjoyed pushing the engine. Very different behaviour with much vigorous accelerations. So in conclusion, a stage 2+ is really something else that isn't easy to access on stock cars. It transforms the car completely, although the power increase seems small in comparison.  :smiley:

Offline Shoduchi

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2018, 11:26:42 AM »
I enjoyed so much the stage 2+ power that when a 2nd hand TTE420 shown up for sale I couldn't refrain myself from getting it. I got it mostly to have a good headroom to go on track days and not suffer too much from high boost levels with hot weather. For me now it's the way I like it. Build finished (pretty much). :evilgrin:

Offline Pudding

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2018, 02:34:49 PM »
Another option would be to sell your exhaust / inlet and go back to stock items with a stage 1 map. That would be cashflow neutral and give a responsive @300bhp / tq. Put @£1k into suspension & brakes upgrades to have a well balanced package. Ecotune seem to be the go-to tuners in Scotland though I suspect there are other decent options.

This.  I went from Stage 1 to 2+ and ended up selling all the 2+ hardware (except the Helix clutch and S3 intercooler, both still fitted) and going back to standard. 

Do I miss 2+?  Absolutely not.   I was very underwhelmed with 2+ after Stage 1 and in all honesty, stock doesn't feel much slower on a day-to-day basis.  It keeps up with Golf Rs easily (when rolling into it, standing start - different story  :grin: ) and I'm not sure why.   When I say standard in terms of mapping, it's my Revo 2+ map in 'stock' mode.   Maybe they add a few chocolate sprinkles onto the standard map, or maybe it's the S3 intercooler, not sure, but it's quick!  It does not feel 230hp at all, more like 280.

The main reasons for not liking 2+ are:

Stinky over-fuelling - black smoke and black smelly oil 1000 miles after a change.

MAF contamination - PCV reversion from 1.7+bar boost killed the MAF every 10,000 miles or so from oil soaking.

Aftermarket intakes - Nasty things.  Gutless below 2500rpm and noisy.  The VWR is the quietest, but the fitment quality is abysmal.

Aftermarket big bore exhausts - Not a fan.  I like quiet.

Aftermarket HPFPs - They kill cam followers quickly.

KO4 surge - The horrible flat spot you have to dial into the map to work around the KO4's spool characteristics.  Very annoying.

Aftermarket uprated clutches - Horrible bite point and bloody heavy in traffic.  They prematurely kill off slave cylinders as well.

Uprated engine mounts - Noisy and big vibrations.  Vibratechnics Fast Road are the best by far, but cabin refinement will suffer a little.  Poly mounts absolutely destroy the interior peace and harmony.

Probably the biggest negative - all that money and effort to gain 40-50hp over Stage 1.  It's really not worth it.

If it's just a weekend car or track toy, fair enough, but if it's a daily and you value refinement and every day consistency, stick to Stage 1 and spend the money on the suspension instead.   Those 2 things will give you far more smiles per miles than 2+.

I am being negative in order to save you money, and it is the reality of it I'm afraid.  Not many people will admit the compromises after spending so much money.

Black Edition 30 with manually selected cogs, a beefier clutch, some extra boost and them Whiteline thingies, otherwise standard.

Offline Pudding

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2018, 02:42:54 PM »
On a more positive note, an Edition 30 with really good suspension, top tier tyres and decent geometry is capable of hilarious cornering speeds.  A proper little B road blaster  :happy2:   All 2+ adds to the party is one wheel peels out of corners. Traction = progress.  Wheelspin = being beaten off the line by a Ford Mondeo TDCi.
Black Edition 30 with manually selected cogs, a beefier clutch, some extra boost and them Whiteline thingies, otherwise standard.

Offline Jgavin1

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2018, 11:53:48 AM »
Thanks for all the replies. Going by your advice I think I will give the 2+ a miss and just get a stage 1 put on it. I suspect the clutch will need changed at some point in the near future anyway so I could try a a stage 1 and see how it goes 😂


Offline csrigo

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2018, 04:19:24 PM »
Budget for the clutch mate its almost a certainty with the miles on these cars now.

I have to agree with @Pudding for the most part.. My manual eddy is stage 2+ and I got my clutch done at ecotune purely because I cant be bothered with driveway clutch changes these days and I wanted some comeback...good thing I did..the helix pressure plate went on me and ecotune sorted it under warranty due to parts flaw...was a feckn pain. Great service from ecotune tho.

I would not 2+ on my daily...I'm currently on 2+ and tbh it does feel a bit faster over stage 1 but I have put ££££ into it for that and the gains are probably not really worth it but that's all relative to the individual I suppose. Drivability like pudding says does take a serious hit.

Offline Jgavin1

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2018, 04:20:35 PM »
I’ve got money put aside for the clutch as I know it’s probably due in the next couple K anyway. Just an update I went and got a custom stage 1 written so the torque figure should be just under 300lbft to keep it safe.

The clutch seems absolutely fine, no slip on a hill in 4th at 3000k rpm flat out so that’s good 😁 one thing I did notice though it seems as though there is a slight millisecond hesitation in the power and I can hear the diverter valve making a kinda ts ts ts noise as if it’s passing ever so slightly.

It would seem that the DV would need replaced yeah ? The revs aren’t shooting up so safe to assume it’s not the clutch at this stage.

Offline Dan_FR

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2018, 04:27:44 PM »
Its not the DV mate its a common side effect of the K04 turbo, its hitting the surge point. The only thing you can do to avoid this is to have the map adjusted to reduce boost during the 3-3.7k RPM range where it occurs... Or quite simply learn to drive around it as most do

If you look after the clutch and dont load it up at low RPM in high gears it'll cope absolutely fine with 300lbft
TFSI... Revo Stage 2+... . WMI.... VCDS HEX + CAN, MPPS, VAG Commander & VAG tacho - South Wales

Offline Jgavin1

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2018, 04:42:30 PM »
Ah right that makes sense! I’ll give the tuner a call to see if they can do something with it. Will driving hard at the point where it is surging cause any damage to the engine/turbo?

Offline patpong_pete

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2018, 05:15:44 PM »
i am stage 1 and feel its quick
got bits might go 2+ dont drive it daily so milage not a problem
if i do go for it and its not wright then sell of bits and leave downpipe and go stage 1.5
best of both
i see alot of people go 2+ after want to sell
and stage 1 sell better or even back to stock

Offline Jgavin1

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Re: To stage 2 or 2+ or not at all? Persuade me
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2018, 10:18:32 PM »
Just been out again with a fresh batch of 99 fuel and the clutch is slipping a bit 😂 it was mapped with Morrison’s cheap rubbish in there so I think the good fuels just pushed it over the edge. I’ve spoke to the tuner and he’s happy to turn it down a notch which should help with the turbo surge and hopefully the clutch holds up. If not it’s new clutch time!

I’ve saw a compete helix kit for £810 on aks tuning which I’ll probably go for. Does anyone know what it should cost labour wise to change one ?