Author Topic: Intake Manifold Flap  (Read 8876 times)

Offline muff1991

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2019, 07:21:24 PM »
Cheers mate, I’ve reset it a few times but the problem still returns. If I’m honest I’m looking at selling the Edition 30 this year and moving into a MK7 R
Oh ok then, didn’t know you already had. Could possibly be wiring, motor or flaps then. The mk7 is a nice car but the edition 30 for age is special :-)


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Offline Wadgti

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2019, 09:13:01 AM »
Hi Folks,

So gave this an attempt on Saturday. Disconnected most of the sensor plugs and loosed the wiring loom from the brackets best I could on the right hand side of the motor. I could not see for the life of me how the the motor can come out other than removing the throttle body??

I seen some posts where folk have said it took an hour to replace, working from below I could only see 2 bolts through the loom and pipes - so much stuff around this motor.

Was hoping anyone can advise if it best to take the throttle body off to get it out properly.

https://workshop-manuals.com/audi/a3_mk2/power_unit/direct_petrol_injection_and_ignition_system_(4-cyl._2.0_ltr._4-valve_turbo)/mixture_preparation_system_electronic_inj.gas/injection_system/removing_and_installing_intake_manifold_flap_motor_v157_with_intake_manifold_flap_potentiometer_g336/

I looked at this guide but its not quite straight forward on the real thing lol.

P.s. I checked autodoc and they are selling the motor for £98 (possibly less with a discount). Anyone every bought from them...seems that they are based in VW land?

Thanks

Offline muff1991

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2019, 09:59:14 AM »
I was going to change mine yesterday, as i managed to get a spare motor to try. Reason being: (soz if you're all sick of hearing this by now - just cant figure it out) but: I have outside cold temperature cold start issues, 0 degrees - engine starts and stalls and throttle doesn't work or hardly works! Temps slightly warmer (say 5 degrees).. engine continues to run but the throttle pedal is very delayed but works enough to drive! Amongst that issue, the car will also cut the power drastically around 4000rpm. Anything above 10 degrees the car runs, no lag and no power cuts.

One cold morning when it was 0.5 degrees and engine stalled i decided to disconnected the Intake Air Temp sensor and bugger me the car instantly continued running and not an ounce of laggy/delayed throttle - and NO performance loss, it runs like a dream! It actually had more low down grunt.. full response and full power throughout the whole rev range! So replaced that and checked wiring.. didn't make a single bit of difference! Got hold of a wiring diagram and the same 5V wire going to the IAT also splices off to 5 other items/sensors. One of those is the Inlet Flap Motor! My theory is I cant help but thinking the issue must be a faulty inlet flap motor (inside these units is a Motor and Potentiometer - so either one of those) could be controlling the flaps incorrectly when cold if faulty and/or the flaps are damaged or carbon build up! Orrr i have an ECU Software/mapping issue and not all talking to each other correctly!

So i attempted to replace this motor.. and there is buggers all room in there! you WILL need a little "bit" ratchet as per that guide @Wadgti . i just ordered a sealey one from ebay for a tenner. but without one of those it will be virtually impossible! kind of defeats the object for me though as for piece of mind, I'm now going to remove the Inlet manifold to inspect flaps and carry out a DIY carbon clean on valves / flaps etc! so while its all off, it would make sense to change the motor too so probs wont need the ratchet. although it should be easy enough to change in situ with the new ratchet. so haven't decided to swap for certain until I've seen valve, flaps etc. we'll see.

Offline Wadgti

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2019, 10:42:46 AM »
I was going to change mine yesterday, as i managed to get a spare motor to try. Reason being: (soz if you're all sick of hearing this by now - just cant figure it out) but: I have outside cold temperature cold start issues, 0 degrees - engine starts and stalls and throttle doesn't work or hardly works! Temps slightly warmer (say 5 degrees).. engine continues to run but the throttle pedal is very delayed but works enough to drive! Amongst that issue, the car will also cut the power drastically around 4000rpm. Anything above 10 degrees the car runs, no lag and no power cuts.

One cold morning when it was 0.5 degrees and engine stalled i decided to disconnected the Intake Air Temp sensor and bugger me the car instantly continued running and not an ounce of laggy/delayed throttle - and NO performance loss, it runs like a dream! It actually had more low down grunt.. full response and full power throughout the whole rev range! So replaced that and checked wiring.. didn't make a single bit of difference! Got hold of a wiring diagram and the same 5V wire going to the IAT also splices off to 5 other items/sensors. One of those is the Inlet Flap Motor! My theory is I cant help but thinking the issue must be a faulty inlet flap motor (inside these units is a Motor and Potentiometer - so either one of those) could be controlling the flaps incorrectly when cold if faulty and/or the flaps are damaged or carbon build up! Orrr i have an ECU Software/mapping issue and not all talking to each other correctly!

So i attempted to replace this motor.. and there is buggers all room in there! you WILL need a little "bit" ratchet as per that guide @Wadgti . i just ordered a sealey one from ebay for a tenner. but without one of those it will be virtually impossible! kind of defeats the object for me though as for piece of mind, I'm now going to remove the Inlet manifold to inspect flaps and carry out a DIY carbon clean on valves / flaps etc! so while its all off, it would make sense to change the motor too so probs wont need the ratchet. although it should be easy enough to change in situ with the new ratchet. so haven't decided to swap for certain until I've seen valve, flaps etc. we'll see.

I have noticed the low down/mid power loss. I came from a mk4 gti 180 and currently feels about the same power as that at the moment. As soon as I clear the code with the laptop and take it for a drive immediate the power is back then and after a minute the code is back with the loss of power.

I know people have said it is idle control and shouldn't affect the power band, but I have seen on other forums people mentioning that it does and I have to agree. I have a slight misfire when running at temp on idle which I hope will eliminate this as well.

Muff can you link to what ratchet you got please? I going to disconnect the air intake temp sensor this week to and see how it runs. I'm getting decent MPG on sensible driving this now too (43mpg on 20 mile motorway stretch sitting around 75 to 80 on the average counter).

I have done a fair bit of reading on the valve cleaning and other than chemical/handscraping or wall nut blasting are the only things that will make a difference. CRC valve cleaner is seemingly very good but its £40 for a can. I may start using it on every service every - haven't decided yet.



Offline muff1991

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2019, 03:24:38 PM »
I was going to change mine yesterday, as i managed to get a spare motor to try. Reason being: (soz if you're all sick of hearing this by now - just cant figure it out) but: I have outside cold temperature cold start issues, 0 degrees - engine starts and stalls and throttle doesn't work or hardly works! Temps slightly warmer (say 5 degrees).. engine continues to run but the throttle pedal is very delayed but works enough to drive! Amongst that issue, the car will also cut the power drastically around 4000rpm. Anything above 10 degrees the car runs, no lag and no power cuts.

One cold morning when it was 0.5 degrees and engine stalled i decided to disconnected the Intake Air Temp sensor and bugger me the car instantly continued running and not an ounce of laggy/delayed throttle - and NO performance loss, it runs like a dream! It actually had more low down grunt.. full response and full power throughout the whole rev range! So replaced that and checked wiring.. didn't make a single bit of difference! Got hold of a wiring diagram and the same 5V wire going to the IAT also splices off to 5 other items/sensors. One of those is the Inlet Flap Motor! My theory is I cant help but thinking the issue must be a faulty inlet flap motor (inside these units is a Motor and Potentiometer - so either one of those) could be controlling the flaps incorrectly when cold if faulty and/or the flaps are damaged or carbon build up! Orrr i have an ECU Software/mapping issue and not all talking to each other correctly!

So i attempted to replace this motor.. and there is buggers all room in there! you WILL need a little "bit" ratchet as per that guide @Wadgti . i just ordered a sealey one from ebay for a tenner. but without one of those it will be virtually impossible! kind of defeats the object for me though as for piece of mind, I'm now going to remove the Inlet manifold to inspect flaps and carry out a DIY carbon clean on valves / flaps etc! so while its all off, it would make sense to change the motor too so probs wont need the ratchet. although it should be easy enough to change in situ with the new ratchet. so haven't decided to swap for certain until I've seen valve, flaps etc. we'll see.

I have noticed the low down/mid power loss. I came from a mk4 gti 180 and currently feels about the same power as that at the moment. As soon as I clear the code with the laptop and take it for a drive immediate the power is back then and after a minute the code is back with the loss of power.

I know people have said it is idle control and shouldn't affect the power band, but I have seen on other forums people mentioning that it does and I have to agree. I have a slight misfire when running at temp on idle which I hope will eliminate this as well.

Muff can you link to what ratchet you got please? I going to disconnect the air intake temp sensor this week to and see how it runs. I'm getting decent MPG on sensible driving this now too (43mpg on 20 mile motorway stretch sitting around 75 to 80 on the average counter).

I have done a fair bit of reading on the valve cleaning and other than chemical/handscraping or wall nut blasting are the only things that will make a difference. CRC valve cleaner is seemingly very good but its £40 for a can. I may start using it on every service every - haven't decided yet.
your symptoms do sound similar to mine.. but I'm still not sure exactly that mines the motor! if all your wiring looks ok, then I'd say yours is the motor.
defo unplug your IAT and give the car a blast see if its any different. i have a feeling the 5V wire once disconnected might go back to the ECU and the ECU allows for all the other sensors and motor on that 5v to run on a "basic setting" (just like disconnecting the MAF sensor for those who know)

here's one i don't understand though! and to me, it seems wrong but I'm not sure if its right...

if you go into basic settings, punch in block 142 and youll see your flap motor bank 1 Actual and Specified.
when i first went into mine, it showed 0.000v actual and 1.440v specified. (engine off, ignition on)
completed an adaptation and it come up ADP OK which is cool, but then showed 3.720v Actual and 1.440v Specified!

done this to a mate, his first started at 0.000v and 1.760v done an Adaptation and got 2900v & 1760v

so mines like just over 2v diff and his is like 1v diff.. dunno if this would mean anything as he has an AXX and i have a BWA.

@Wadgti when you get 5 could you check yours out please and post up the figures.. anyone else please feel free to do so too :)


Offline Pudding

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2019, 04:41:12 PM »
I'm not sure measuring the values with the engine not running will tell you a lot tbh.  The flaps are switched off/on at various loads, rpms and temperatures.  So long as you see movement, the motor is working.  If the flaps are stuck closed you'll have no top end power.  If they're stuck open, you'll have bugger all torque off idle.

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Offline muff1991

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2019, 07:15:23 PM »
Defo movement in mine, and when I disconnect the sensor I ain’t seen the flap motor arm move which made me think the motor might not be my problem and maybe sumin else on the 5v line.
But the motor could still move even if faulty but flaps won’t be exactly where it should be. Although you’d probs get a code I guess. Which wadgti has got.
If you got a spare wad then change it, see what happens. If not do some more investigating before you punt money on a new one.



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Offline muff1991

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2019, 07:16:23 PM »
Oh and the values hardly changed when running pudding... which I why I thought it seemed a bit weird.



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Offline Dan_FR

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2019, 07:34:08 AM »
People over estimate the difference these flaps make. Yes if they are stuck shut it will severely limit power/top end.... but they only close at low range and at very light loads (i.e. idle and the lightest of cruises). Other than that, they're open and do bugger all, cause more harm than good. I say rip the buggers out, but that's me
TFSI... Revo Stage 2+... . WMI.... VCDS HEX + CAN, MPPS, VAG Commander & VAG tacho - South Wales

Offline Wadgti

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2019, 09:32:09 AM »
I was going to change mine yesterday, as i managed to get a spare motor to try. Reason being: (soz if you're all sick of hearing this by now - just cant figure it out) but: I have outside cold temperature cold start issues, 0 degrees - engine starts and stalls and throttle doesn't work or hardly works! Temps slightly warmer (say 5 degrees).. engine continues to run but the throttle pedal is very delayed but works enough to drive! Amongst that issue, the car will also cut the power drastically around 4000rpm. Anything above 10 degrees the car runs, no lag and no power cuts.

One cold morning when it was 0.5 degrees and engine stalled i decided to disconnected the Intake Air Temp sensor and bugger me the car instantly continued running and not an ounce of laggy/delayed throttle - and NO performance loss, it runs like a dream! It actually had more low down grunt.. full response and full power throughout the whole rev range! So replaced that and checked wiring.. didn't make a single bit of difference! Got hold of a wiring diagram and the same 5V wire going to the IAT also splices off to 5 other items/sensors. One of those is the Inlet Flap Motor! My theory is I cant help but thinking the issue must be a faulty inlet flap motor (inside these units is a Motor and Potentiometer - so either one of those) could be controlling the flaps incorrectly when cold if faulty and/or the flaps are damaged or carbon build up! Orrr i have an ECU Software/mapping issue and not all talking to each other correctly!

So i attempted to replace this motor.. and there is buggers all room in there! you WILL need a little "bit" ratchet as per that guide @Wadgti . i just ordered a sealey one from ebay for a tenner. but without one of those it will be virtually impossible! kind of defeats the object for me though as for piece of mind, I'm now going to remove the Inlet manifold to inspect flaps and carry out a DIY carbon clean on valves / flaps etc! so while its all off, it would make sense to change the motor too so probs wont need the ratchet. although it should be easy enough to change in situ with the new ratchet. so haven't decided to swap for certain until I've seen valve, flaps etc. we'll see.

I have noticed the low down/mid power loss. I came from a mk4 gti 180 and currently feels about the same power as that at the moment. As soon as I clear the code with the laptop and take it for a drive immediate the power is back then and after a minute the code is back with the loss of power.

I know people have said it is idle control and shouldn't affect the power band, but I have seen on other forums people mentioning that it does and I have to agree. I have a slight misfire when running at temp on idle which I hope will eliminate this as well.

Muff can you link to what ratchet you got please? I going to disconnect the air intake temp sensor this week to and see how it runs. I'm getting decent MPG on sensible driving this now too (43mpg on 20 mile motorway stretch sitting around 75 to 80 on the average counter).

I have done a fair bit of reading on the valve cleaning and other than chemical/handscraping or wall nut blasting are the only things that will make a difference. CRC valve cleaner is seemingly very good but its £40 for a can. I may start using it on every service every - haven't decided yet.
your symptoms do sound similar to mine.. but I'm still not sure exactly that mines the motor! if all your wiring looks ok, then I'd say yours is the motor.
defo unplug your IAT and give the car a blast see if its any different. i have a feeling the 5V wire once disconnected might go back to the ECU and the ECU allows for all the other sensors and motor on that 5v to run on a "basic setting" (just like disconnecting the MAF sensor for those who know)

here's one i don't understand though! and to me, it seems wrong but I'm not sure if its right...

if you go into basic settings, punch in block 142 and youll see your flap motor bank 1 Actual and Specified.
when i first went into mine, it showed 0.000v actual and 1.440v specified. (engine off, ignition on)
completed an adaptation and it come up ADP OK which is cool, but then showed 3.720v Actual and 1.440v Specified!

done this to a mate, his first started at 0.000v and 1.760v done an Adaptation and got 2900v & 1760v

so mines like just over 2v diff and his is like 1v diff.. dunno if this would mean anything as he has an AXX and i have a BWA.

@Wadgti when you get 5 could you check yours out please and post up the figures.. anyone else please feel free to do so too :)

I will do mines tomorrow when I get a chance mate.

When I ran the adaption with the engine off, the first motor went up to 3.7v from what I can remember. I will take some photos tomorrow. i will probs do a log run when I am going to pick my beer up 2 from the shop  :smiley:..

I have been tempted to take the manifold off but really cant be bothered having to reinstall the injectors plus I dont have the tool for it. I have ordered the micro ratchet, but wont get around change until next weekend as I need to attend to the garden and will be changing the oil and fuel filter on Saturday and thats the cars fully serviced now.

The motor I got was only £14 on ebay breakers but the guy said it was working, its worth a punt before I look at alternative options.

I have a spare "E" motor that I bought by mistake, its really clean if you need or anyone needs it. Bought it £20 delivered so can do the same as I don't need it anymore.

On @Pudding point - if the flaps are stuck and the motor is still trying to turn, i wouldnt think it should throw the faulty motor code. I will try and and see if the flaps move on when adapting, not really wanting to do it on idle as means the cover and air filter would have to be off at the same time.

I will keep you posted.

Cheers


Offline Dan_FR

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2019, 12:58:43 PM »
FYI Manifold faults, including short to grounds and flap positions etc. will not show using a generic OBD scantool and needs something that will read VAG specific codes, such as VCDS
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Offline Pudding

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2019, 02:28:46 PM »
Yep, that's the trouble with the myriad of cheap scanners like OBDLinkMX+ and Carista etc.  They sell you on "All 1996 on OBD2 cars supported" but that's misleading because the only standard thing about OBD is the port!  As Dan says, VAG have a lot of brand specific data PIDs 90% of cheap code readers can't display.

As clunky, slow and outdated as VCDS is, it's the only option for VAG enthusiasts looking to get balls deep into diagnostics......unless you want to spend a few grand on a Snap-on Verus Pro!

Anyway, flaps.  Everyone loves flaps and flapjacks!  I agree they should be binned off.  No one wants the extra complication and expense, but unfortunately some engines don't like having their flapjacks eaten....especially on a frosty morning eh @muff1991 ? :grin:

Something strange going on with your flaps muff, and 'calculated' engine load seems a bit high to me!   At idle, the flap position should be 99.6% i.e. fully closed.

Go for a drive from cold and get engine coolant, rpm, throttle angle and channel 143-3 (flap position) up on your screen.  VCDS mobile via the HEX-NET interface is really handy for this as I stick my phone in front of the cluster for easy viewing.

Anyway, the flapjack behaviour is as follows:

Cold to 50 deg (iirc) water temp = flaps at 99.6% (fully closed) most of the time except heavy throttle.

50+ water temp = 99.6% at idle and cruising.  When touching the gas, the flaps should go from 99.6% to 0.0% (fully open) pretty quickly.   When backing off, the flaps should close progressively from 0.0 to 99.6.  It's not a simple on/off and it's not rpm dependant either.  The flaps can be closed cruising along at 80!

BTW, 'fully closed' doesn't mean blocking the port, it means maximum tumble effect.  Air will always get past the flaps regardless......but if they are closed when they should be at 0.0%, you will notice a lack of power and/or very laggy torque delivery.

My Flap B1 positions are 0.00V and 1.450V by the way.....and they never move from that.....but the % position moves a lot!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 02:30:21 PM by Pudding »
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Offline muff1991

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2019, 07:13:17 PM »
Hey pudding, leave my flaps alone! I’ll reply to this post properly when I get a chance, but your Voltage is basically where mine was before doing an adaptation. When you get 5 mins do an adaptation and see what yours says. Or this could be irrelevant. Some great info on the below! Will have a more digested read, snowed at the mo.


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Offline Pudding

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Re: Intake Manifold Flap
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2019, 10:26:37 AM »
Yeah I'll try that next time I dig the laptop out.

I data logged it on the way into work this morning and I can confirm it comes out of warm-up mode at 50 degrees water temp.

The primary load is pedal position, not throttle as I first thought.   The flaps very active!  No wonder Revo don't offer a flap-less map.   It's not as simple as just removing them.
Black Edition 30 with manually selected cogs, a beefier clutch, some extra boost and them Whiteline thingies, otherwise standard.