MK5 Golf GTI
All Things Mk5 => Mk5 General Area => Topic started by: jhook661 on May 16, 2015, 09:49:24 pm
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Evening all
I've got a dreaded chain rattle I'm thinking of changing my cam chain tensioner etc I was wondering if any has done the replacement sussecfully them selfs before ? Or knows a guide for i know it's not a cheap job but if I can do it my self and save some money I will :smiley:
Any advice or guidence will be helpful
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@dazza (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10457) has done this recently
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Yes,Dazza thread is epic along with this:-
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7013321-A-quick-D-I-Y-Cam-Chain-and-Tensioner-
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Don't follow my thread i cocked it up.
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,89158.0.html
I followed the DIY in the post above.
I have the Cam locking tool and VW bit for the bolt holding on the adjustor. Your welcome to borrow them if you pay postage and a £50 deposit. A couple of members have already used them. @GTi-Andy (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10725)
I changed the Adjustor due to snapping the bolt holding it on and having to drilling it out. The plan before this was just to change the chain and tensioner.
I think Andy also decided to change the adjustor.
What you will need
chain - part no. 06D109229B
tensioner - part no. 06F109217A
gasket - part no. 06D103121B
seal - part no. 06E127248
gasket - part no. 06F103483D
Adjuster Bolt - part no. 06D109281D
Optional (Not Cheap)
06F109088J adjustor
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Yup, I did the adjuster too just as a precaution. Didn't want to put it all back together to find out it that the noise was still there
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Cost me around £650, for parts and labour. But that was at mates rates. No more diesel sound for me.
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So is there an actual diy guide for the cam chain renewel
Dazza are the locking tools genuine vw ??
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So is there an actual diy guide for the cam chain renewel
Dazza are the locking tools genuine vw ??
The locking tool is not genuine. The bit for cam adjustor bolt is.
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I borrowed Dazza's timing tools and they did the job. Help me out a lot.
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Thanks Andy and Dazza do you know roughly how much the parts are including the adjuster ?
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You'll pay around £550 for the parts. The adjuster alone is £370
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The chain on mine was definitely stretched and the wear on the tensioner was unreal. Considering my car had only covered 45k I was well shocked.
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That's a lot of money isn't it Andy ! :sick: no THS intercooler for me next month !
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If your going to DIY it. Why not just change the Chain and tensioner?
Worst case scenario you have to do it again.
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As Dazza said. Sometimes the adjuster hasn't always needed to be changed. But some have had to open it up again when the noise was still there.
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If we ignore the snapping of the bolt holding the adjustor. The hardest part of this job was removing the rocker cover.
I removed it 3 times last week and took about half an hour. Things are always easier the second time around.
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What is the potentially wrong with a faulty adjuster? So say you change just the chain and tensioner (both liable to snap / break) i appreciate half the battle is to eliminate the diesel noise, but could the adjuster fail?
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I've read a few posts where people have changed the chain and tensioner and still had the diesel noise. The diesel noise did not go until they replaced the adjustor.
I took mine apart to see how it works there was no info online so couldn't really get the jist of it. The teeth did look a little worn so even a new chain may have had some movement.
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Thanks for all your help I'll get it changed soon I'll make a diy for it too
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So is this issue not so common on the later engines then?
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So is this issue not so common on the later engines then?
had it replaced on my 07 plate after the warning light came on although I don't remember it being noisy
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So is this issue not so common on the later engines then?
Replaced the chain and adjuster on the later BWA engine yesterday as per the manufactures guide http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswagen/golf-mk5/power_unit/4-cylinder_injection_engine_(2.0_l_engine_direct_injection)/engine_cylinder_head_valve_gear/valve_gear/removing_and_installing_camshaft_adjuster/
The job isn't difficult but I warn anyone thinking of doing this you need both tooling T40080 and T10252 items to be quality products as the bolt holding the chain adjuster on is "tight" and cheap tooling will result in another wise very doable DIY repair turning into a nightmare!
The replaced items cured the rattle when running at normal (90) temperature, without the camchain adjuster being fitted!
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So is this issue not so common on the later engines then?
Replaced the chain and adjuster on the later BWA engine yesterday as per the manufactures guide http://workshop-manuals.com/volkswagen/golf-mk5/power_unit/4-cylinder_injection_engine_(2.0_l_engine_direct_injection)/engine_cylinder_head_valve_gear/valve_gear/removing_and_installing_camshaft_adjuster/
The job isn't difficult but I warn anyone thinking of doing this you need both tooling T40080 and T10252 items to be quality products as the bolt holding the chain adjuster on is "tight" and cheap tooling will result in another wise very doable DIY repair turning into a nightmare!
The replaced items cured the rattle when running at normal (90) temperature, without the camchain adjuster being fitted!
What tooling do you recommend? Did you have access to the genuine tools?
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I had access to the genuine tools over the weekend but that adjuster bolt is F***ing tight and you need that socket a locking tool to do the business!
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I rounded the bolt as i did not have the T40080.
I have the T40080 and a non genuine T10252 if you want to borrow them.
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TBH i think i would have mangled the bolt even if i had the T40080. Could have done with an extra pair of hands to hold the bit in place.
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So is this issue not so common on the later engines then?
had it replaced on my 07 plate after the warning light came on although I don't remember it being noisy
Warning light? Was it just the engine management one or is there something more specific to the timing chain/ adjuster? Thanks.
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I had access to the genuine tools over the weekend but that adjuster bolt is F***ing tight and you need that socket a locking tool to do the business!
Ok thanks, being a bit naive would a 36" breaker bar do it?
I rounded the bolt as i did not have the T40080.
I have the T40080 and a non genuine T10252 if you want to borrow them.
Thanks Dazza I had seen your generous offers to others so had you in part of the plan :evilgrin:
I'm due a cambelt so probably get that done then consider doing the chain and tensioner in a few months :laugh:
Was just a bit concerned about pantneted part after what vrs Alex said about them but you managed and GTI-Andy using your tools :happy2:
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I know of one person who used a Laser locking tool and the locking pins just bent apart when undoing the adjuster bolt!
I also know of one person who used a Proto tool (Poly-head 10 socket) that just twisted and delayed the job by a day until TPS got him the correct socket!
On a similar note did you see this post
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,97848.0.html
That's a real bill for job which is quite enjoyable with the correct tools at a fraction of the dealer costs!
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The sealey locking tool seems ok. It's been used a couple of times now.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2F00%2Fs%2FMTA2M1gxMDI1%2Fz%2FwrsAAOSw9NxTrqz3%2F%24_57.JPG&hash=16d59d4f02e070f76405e6b7ddedb935f7207887)
That does seem a lot for a timing chain and water pump.
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I had access to the genuine tools over the weekend but that adjuster bolt is F***ing tight and you need that socket a locking tool to do the business!
Ok thanks, being a bit naive would a 36" breaker bar do it?
I rounded the bolt as i did not have the T40080.
I have the T40080 and a non genuine T10252 if you want to borrow them.
I used a 3/4 drive power bar with 1/2 reducer - the angle didn't suit my 1/2 bar with standard scaff pipe lever hitting the bonnet!
My tool kit doesn't include a 36" breaker bar but as Dazza pointed out it would be a good idea to have a helper pushing the tool into the bolt as its only a shallow contact area and that's a lot of leverage.
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I know of one person who used a Laser locking tool and the locking pins just bent apart when undoing the adjuster bolt!
I also know of one person who used a Proto tool (Poly-head 10 socket) that just twisted and delayed the job by a day until TPS got him the correct socket!
On a similar note did you see this post
http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,97848.0.html
That's a real bill for job which is quite enjoyable with the correct tools at a fraction of the dealer costs!
Yeah hear a few horror stories, there is nothing more enjoyable than a successful diy especially when you save ££ too. I have change the main thermostat that many wouldnt attempt. It's just this job the one cam bolt seems to hold a lot of risk on catching me out, really seems all or nothing! I would happily give it a go but don't want to get in a situation of having an issue with the bolt and having to result to a garage if the bolt fails.
It's reassuring to know Dazza is about for email assistance ad tools. As mention good idea for someone to steady whilst at the other end of the breaker. Seen that thread bit concerning as they know someone there to!
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The original locking tool is £70 i only bought the other one as i did not want to wait to get it from germany. Lesson learnt.
I would not use a 36" breaker bar. Start with the smallest breaker you have.
Even if u mangle the bolt its not the end of the world. Just get yourself a 13mm Cobalt drill bit. I nearly f*cked the job completely messing about with sh*tty drill bits. As soon as the cobalt bits arrived they made short work of the bolt.
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I did change mine ok
Bought the locking kit off e bay was not to expensive
But was so quite when I changed it
Worst was undoing the cam bolt was so tight
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So is this issue not so common on the later engines then?
had it replaced on my 07 plate after the warning light came on although I don't remember it being noisy
Warning light? Was it just the engine management one or is there something more specific to the timing chain/ adjuster? Thanks.
Yes it was just the engine management light. Took it to VW as it was under warranty, they diagnosed and fitted chain, tensioner and adjuster.
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Do the cams need to come out to do this? The guides I've looked at so far seem to indicate not, but stumbled onto an Audi S3 forum where a guy said there's not enough slack in the chain to remove the adjuster, the cams have to come out?
Also, the brass coloured link in the new chain - which alignment mark does that need to be lined up with?
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From my understanding no they don't
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Do the cams need to come out to do this? The guides I've looked at so far seem to indicate not, but stumbled onto an Audi S3 forum where a guy said there's not enough slack in the chain to remove the adjuster, the cams have to come out?
Also, the brass coloured link in the new chain - which alignment mark does that need to be lined up with?
Once you've got the locking tool in place you can remove the chain by depressing the adjust - the chain it's self doesn't need timed as that's the job of the locking tool.
Good tooling is the key to this job and removing the valve adjuster solenoid before breaking the connector - just two tiny torx 8 if I remember correctly.
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Cheers guys
Can you push the tensioner down by hand and lock it with a pin to slacken the chain, or does hydraulic pressure stop you from doing that? Just don't wanna tear it all down and have to put it all back together again!
I've got all the genuine tools from VW to do this job, which folk are welcome to borrow after I've done it!
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Cheers guys
I've got all the genuine tools from VW to do this job, which folk are welcome to borrow after I've done it!
Remember the adjuster bolt will be tight and will worry you how tight it is - best have a pal push the bit into and hold in place the bit while your pulling down on the bar for this bit.
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I did my cam chain and adjuster last year easy job just takes time
Cams don't need to come out
Time it up to TDC
Take off the Engine cover and intake pipe off
Rocker cover off and cam chain housing
Lock up the cams with the locking tool I would suggest using genuine tools and especially for the cam adjuster bolt
Undo the adjuster bolt
Pull off the adjuster tensioner too chain off replace and reverse the order putting it back together get new gaskets for the rocker cover and cam chain housing too :happy2:
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Has anyone.got prices of chain and tensioner?
Also will tps sell it to me?
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About £40 each and tps will sell them to you as well :smiley:
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Good opportunity to get a cam belt be done at the same time? Anybody near the Midlands fancy doing the job for me?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Oh thats good, vw quote me 66 for chain and 100 for tensioner!
So tps will have no problem with me not being a trade?
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About £40 each and tps will sell them to you as well :smiley:
Really? Is this the price from tps?
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Very interesting trail of comments. This job fills me with fear. At what kind of mileage, roughly, will this need doing? I was surprised to see one comment about wear at only 42,000 miles (?). A very big bill at the $tealers! :scared:
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Tps just quoted me 66 for chain and 100 for the tensioner. I think thats with trade discount as well, they wont have it in stock untill tuesday anyway.
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I dont.underatand how others are getting cheaper quotes? Ive been giving the part numbers so how do they vary so much?
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I got the chain, tensioner and end gasket for 80 quid :signLOL: just need to rocket gasket now.
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Where from @rich83 (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=709) ?
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Got it done in approx 5 hours. Removing the Cam adjuster bolt was the only butt clenching moment, but it cracked off nicely.
The weird thing is it all looked fine! I nearly didn't bother but then I thought feck it, I've bought the bits so why not.
I was impressed by the condition of my engine at 100K. It's a BYD lump. It's clearly been looked after before I bought it and I change the oil every 5K with Mobil 1 ESP 5W/30.
Barely any staining at all and the tensioner is hardly touched either.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fx2%2Fkevhaywire%2FIMG_3845_zpszigjeicc.jpg&hash=201c3c8b65e0d7bb76597dc6055d2d79f9c89e66)
Although mine wasn't mega noisy at idle, I'm glad I did it as there's a fair bit of chain droop at TDC compared to a new chain.
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fx2%2Fkevhaywire%2FIMG_3843_zpsesbrf8t5.jpg&hash=84accbf1de25843753d5a701e62d7b9ce5244fe9)
New chain and the droop is a lot less. Car is quieter at idle now which is a bonus. I caught it early I think!
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fx2%2Fkevhaywire%2FIMG_3846_zpsi7zgihez.jpg&hash=b0d2ddbc2da357349d8363f695fd5034d3a3b4d2)
Those running a Loba HPFP, you might wanna change your follower more frequently than usual. It's starting to go after only 20K miles. Must be the stronger spring in the pump I reckon?
(https://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdaz.co%2Fmedia%2Fx2%2Fkevhaywire%2FIMG_3847_zpsuyyc93ox.jpg&hash=59d2c1c6fbab37e41e9b8803a8d439a8867fc17a)
The only 2 things I'd recommend, based on my experience, is use the VW tools and torque wrench or a very rigid breaker bar to remove the cam adjuster bolt, otherwise it's all straight forward. Add a vacuum pump O ring to the parts list as well because it's a lot easier with that out of the way.
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Vacuum oring?
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I think that was a waste of time @Pudding (http://www.mk5golfgti.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=10733) whats the worst that can happen? :signLOL:
Good job mate, although it looked not that bad, you never know and now you have peace of mind. Well worth it.
Ive been a bit stupid, I should have asked you to push your old tensioner up and down with it all still assembled to see if you were getting oil seepage around the shaft which mine is doing to see whether its supposed to. Anyone else planning on doing so, please let me know.
Head over to my thread, theres a question waiting for you :wink:
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The vacuum pump seals to the chain cover with an O ring. I found the bottom chain cover bolt is easier to get at with the vacuum pump removed.
Yeah my old tensioner seeped oil when I pushed it down Pesky mate.
Just been out for a 50 odd mile shake down and it drives and idles soooooo much better. I guess it was all worn out more than it looked.
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Is there supposed to be an actual mileage or age for this to be changed or is this coming down to individual cases and how much noise the chains making.
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Is there supposed to be an actual mileage or age for this to be changed or is this coming down to individual cases and how much noise the chains making.
Noise is a the best guide to get it sorted - rattling when the engines up to temperature for me is saying get the chain and tensioner done.
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Excellent pics pudding. You got a part number for this o ring?
Is that a gen. Cam locker?
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I need to do this as my poor Gti sounds like a tractor!
This job scares the hell out of me though, not really having anywhere to DIY this other than roadside is another problem i have.
i've asked a couple garages for quotes now and they both told me that my car doesnt have a cam chain, it has a cam belt :congrats: even with some more explaining i find it hard for them to understand what exactly i want.
i would love to be able to take it to the stealers, but i just afford that, does anyone in the southwest know of any good garages?
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Excellent pics pudding. You got a part number for this o ring?
Is that a gen. Cam locker?
Cheers. Impressive pics for a phone! I remember paying £1000s in SLR to get that image quality 20 years ago!!
Anyway, I didn't change the O ring mate as I didn't plan on removing the vacuum pump, so didn't get one in. As it turned out, the O ring was still springy and sealed up OK. The only gasket that had gone hard was the rocker one. I just put that in there as a recommendation for others. I would have replaced it if I had one!
Yeah that's a genuine locker :happy2:
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I need to do this as my poor Gti sounds like a tractor!
This job scares the hell out of me though, not really having anywhere to DIY this other than roadside is another problem i have.
i've asked a couple garages for quotes now and they both told me that my car doesnt have a cam chain, it has a cam belt :congrats: even with some more explaining i find it hard for them to understand what exactly i want.
i would love to be able to take it to the stealers, but i just afford that, does anyone in the southwest know of any good garages?
It scared me too because of all the reports of the cam adjuster bolt rounding out. I can see why that happens though. The polydrive bolt head only has a depth of about 4mm, which is no where near enough, so you really do need someone to push hard onto the torque wrench / breaker bar whilst you undo it, otherwise it will run off true and chew the bolt head out.
I tried a 3 foot breaker bar first but no joy, it just bent too much, giving me the fear. I then tried my 3 foot torque wrench is waaaaay more rigid and it cracked right off. At one point I thought the cam locking tool was going to strip out the threads in the head it takes that much force to undo :confused:
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I need to do this as my poor Gti sounds like a tractor!
This job scares the hell out of me though, not really having anywhere to DIY this other than roadside is another problem i have.
i've asked a couple garages for quotes now and they both told me that my car doesnt have a cam chain, it has a cam belt :congrats: even with some more explaining i find it hard for them to understand what exactly i want.
i would love to be able to take it to the stealers, but i just afford that, does anyone in the southwest know of any good garages?
It scared me too because of all the reports of the cam adjuster bolt rounding out. I can see why that happens though. The polydrive bolt head only has a depth of about 4mm, which is no where near enough, so you really do need someone to push hard onto the torque wrench / breaker bar whilst you undo it, otherwise it will run off true and chew the bolt head out.
I tried a 3 foot breaker bar first but no joy, it just bent too much, giving me the fear. I then tried my 3 foot torque wrench is waaaaay more rigid and it cracked right off. At one point I thought the cam locking tool was going to strip out the threads in the head it takes that much force to undo :confused:
I think ill leave this to the professionals!
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Wise, especially if it's a daily, like mine is. I took a gamble, and it paid off :smiley:
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Did anyone do a before and after check in VCDS measuring block 93?
I didn't do a before but I'm now seeing -2.0KW at idle. Is that normal? I've come from an R32 and the allowable range is -8.0KW to +8.0KW but I don't understand the cam advance behaviour of these engines as it's completely different!
The R32 has very low advance at idle and really ramps it up in the midrange to a max of +43 degrees.
The EA113 sits at +28 (max advance) at idle and reduces to 0 when you stab the throttle, but I think it can also retard to -28 as well. Perhaps to control intake reversion from cam overlap?
Does anyone understand the cam behaviour of this engine? Just curious! It seems to be running fine post chain replacement but my picky mind is wondering..... what if I got it a tooth off?